D&D 5E Natural Weapons, How Much Value Is There To Actually Having Them?

Instead we get things like the Volo's Lizardfolk's Hungry Jaws, usable 1/Long Rest!

As much as I rag on Lizardfolk design, this was improved in MMM to something that almost saves the race from the scrappy pile with PB bonus uses per Long Rest...even though they somehow felt they should have to give up Cunning Artisan to get this upgrade, lol.
Why were they poor before? I did not get much time to play my Lizardfolk character in 5e for a variety of reasons, but even before what appears to be a good upgrade in MPMM, the VGM printing seems pretty good for Clerics.

  • Natural Armor means that with a decent Dex score, you don't have to worry about putting gold into armour. Combine with a shield and you can be extremely tanky - great for any melee based cleric. AC 13, with Dex of 16 for +3 plus a Shield is +2 = 18 AC, with much less gold sink and no disadvantages when it comes to stealth.
  • Extra proficiencies that the class doesn't cover - Stealth and Perception are standouts here.
  • Swim speed and Hold Breath are pretty niche / near ribbons, but can be pretty useful in situations where they do arise; not too rare to be beside a river.

Admittedly, you won't get much if anything out of your Bite or Frenzy features, but I feel the ones I listed above make Lizardfolk a pretty good Cleric pick.
 

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CreamCloud0

One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
Most of those make me ask why would it do this, what it is representing?
-Damage over time (takes an action to stop like alchemists fire)
barbs and needles that stick in, acid that sticks, or just deep gashes that the blood needs to be stemmed
/blinded/slowed
attacking specific body parts, achieved easier than by using a weapon
fear is, well fear, representing an especially vicious attack perhaps or innate magical influences
/poisoned
natural venoms and toxins
could be a tail getting between the legs or getting topped by ramming horns
-pushed/forced movement
brute strength being applied with different leverage than with a weapon, getting rammed with horns?
-recover HP equal to damage dealt or hit die+con
bites and blood drinking, or magical energy draining
-reach/projectile attacks
a long tail, projectile venoms/body fluids/barbs
-expanded critical range
representing greater accuracy or more vicious attacks/claws that tear rather than cut cleanly
-energy damage types
attacks from magical/elemental species(tieflings/dragonborn/genasi) or body fluids(acid/poison)
-nonstandard action iniative (serving as an Extra Attack, can make opportunity attacks that don't burn reaction)
tails, spines, tusks, fluids, teeth, horns, having body parts that let you capitalise on tactics and opportunities that the standard humanoid template doesn’t allow
-targeting saving throws instead of AC
this can just be attacks being made in different ways than with weapons, or with things like venoms
Natural attacks not being that powerful is fine. In most situations sword is going to be better than claws. If cats had thumbs, they'd use swords too.
yes sure, these aren't ever going to be powerful, characters aren't going to rely on them and in 99% of circumstances they aren't going to be better than using an actual weapon, but 99% of the time is better than 100% of the time, these situational effects could give a character a reason to ever actually pause to consider using their natural weapon over their longsword rather than it just taking up space on their sheet, for that time when your natural weapon rider effect cinched the fight, 1d6+blinded is still something more to do than just 1d6.
 
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James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Most of those make me ask why would it do this, what it is representing?

Natural attacks not being that powerful is fine. In most situations sword is going to be better than claws. If cats had thumbs, they'd use swords too.
Mostly I think so that if one of your race's cool features is "you get a natural weapon", to make it more likely you'll use that natural weapon from time to time.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Why were they poor before? I did not get much time to play my Lizardfolk character in 5e for a variety of reasons, but even before what appears to be a good upgrade in MPMM, the VGM printing seems pretty good for Clerics.

  • Natural Armor means that with a decent Dex score, you don't have to worry about putting gold into armour. Combine with a shield and you can be extremely tanky - great for any melee based cleric. AC 13, with Dex of 16 for +3 plus a Shield is +2 = 18 AC, with much less gold sink and no disadvantages when it comes to stealth.
  • Extra proficiencies that the class doesn't cover - Stealth and Perception are standouts here.
  • Swim speed and Hold Breath are pretty niche / near ribbons, but can be pretty useful in situations where they do arise; not too rare to be beside a river.

Admittedly, you won't get much if anything out of your Bite or Frenzy features, but I feel the ones I listed above make Lizardfolk a pretty good Cleric pick.
Ok, so I'll start with my review of the race as it was printed in Volo's. At this time, there was no flexible ASI's. We have a Con/Wis race that has the following abilities:

30' Swim Speed (not bad, but I'll get back to this).

A Natural Weapon (topic of this thread).

Cunning Artisan, which allows you to, if you already have a dagger or artisan's tools to create a weapon that doesn't do any more damage than your Bite, or a Shield during a short rest. You can also make a few darts or blowgun needles (but you can't make a blowgun). I don't know that there's any reason to use a blowgun in the first place, so I can't say how useful that is. You can save anyone in your party that uses a shield 10gp though!

(There is an argument for selling your weapons to make gold- if your DM allows this, it might help you defray the cost for your healing potion budget, but you should get enough gold from adventuring for this to be a trivial benefit).

Hold Breath. Going to get back to this one too.

Hunter's Lore: ok, free skill proficiency is fine, especially with the option for Perception.

Natural Armor: so you basically get free Mage Armor/+1 Studded Leather. Recall that this wasn't created to be a Dexterity race, so you're not likely getting any better AC than a race with a bonus to Dexterity, and as Con/Wis, the classes you're most likely going to select probably have access to better armor.

Hungry Jaws I discussed already, a 1/long rest bonus action attack that gives out a few temps. Not great.

So what about that swim speed? Well, in the same book,. we get the Triton.

Str/Con/Cha race.

Same Swim Speed.

Can cast Fog Cloud/Gust of Wind/Wall of Water 1/long rest.

Can actually breathe underwater.

Can communicate with any water breathing creature.

Resistance to cold and immunity to "any of the drawbacks caused by a deep, underwater environment" (I'm assuming their talking about pressure damage or the bends).

Even if communicating with water breathing creatures and resistance to the bends are ribbons, I'd argue that the communication is a better ribbon than a d6 bite or the ability to make a club.

Breathing underwater trumps holding one's breath in most cases.

Resistance to Cold is always useful no matter what level you are.

And instead of a 1/long rest attack, you get an actual spell. Sure, Fog Cloud is generally only good for running away, and I've never see Gust of Wind have a particularly good use, but Wall of Water gives ranged attacks disadvantage and protects you from fire, so I'm going to say this is way better.

No free skill proficiency though.

And this is two races in the same book! If you're choosing a race by what it gives you, then Triton is a superior choice most of the time. And if you're choosing a race based on roleplay concerns, well, here's the other reason I hate the Lizardfolk:
Lizardfolk.jpg

A guy who lacks emotion and empathy and looks at me the same way I look at a steak- why would I want to go on a dangerous adventure with him again?
 

Incenjucar

Legend
Ok, so I'll start with my review of the race as it was printed in Volo's. At this time, there was no flexible ASI's. We have a Con/Wis race that has the following abilities:

30' Swim Speed (not bad, but I'll get back to this).

A Natural Weapon (topic of this thread).

Cunning Artisan, which allows you to, if you already have a dagger or artisan's tools to create a weapon that doesn't do any more damage than your Bite, or a Shield during a short rest. You can also make a few darts or blowgun needles (but you can't make a blowgun). I don't know that there's any reason to use a blowgun in the first place, so I can't say how useful that is. You can save anyone in your party that uses a shield 10gp though!

(There is an argument for selling your weapons to make gold- if your DM allows this, it might help you defray the cost for your healing potion budget, but you should get enough gold from adventuring for this to be a trivial benefit).

Hold Breath. Going to get back to this one too.

Hunter's Lore: ok, free skill proficiency is fine, especially with the option for Perception.

Natural Armor: so you basically get free Mage Armor/+1 Studded Leather. Recall that this wasn't created to be a Dexterity race, so you're not likely getting any better AC than a race with a bonus to Dexterity, and as Con/Wis, the classes you're most likely going to select probably have access to better armor.

Hungry Jaws I discussed already, a 1/long rest bonus action attack that gives out a few temps. Not great.

So what about that swim speed? Well, in the same book,. we get the Triton.

Str/Con/Cha race.

Same Swim Speed.

Can cast Fog Cloud/Gust of Wind/Wall of Water 1/long rest.

Can actually breathe underwater.

Can communicate with any water breathing creature.

Resistance to cold and immunity to "any of the drawbacks caused by a deep, underwater environment" (I'm assuming their talking about pressure damage or the bends).

Even if communicating with water breathing creatures and resistance to the bends are ribbons, I'd argue that the communication is a better ribbon than a d6 bite or the ability to make a club.

Breathing underwater trumps holding one's breath in most cases.

Resistance to Cold is always useful no matter what level you are.

And instead of a 1/long rest attack, you get an actual spell. Sure, Fog Cloud is generally only good for running away, and I've never see Gust of Wind have a particularly good use, but Wall of Water gives ranged attacks disadvantage and protects you from fire, so I'm going to say this is way better.

No free skill proficiency though.

And this is two races in the same book! If you're choosing a race by what it gives you, then Triton is a superior choice most of the time. And if you're choosing a race based on roleplay concerns, well, here's the other reason I hate the Lizardfolk:
View attachment 325817
A guy who lacks emotion and empathy and looks at me the same way I look at a steak- why would I want to go on a dangerous adventure with him again?
Presumably you have goals in common. Being cold and emotionless also makes you unlikely to be a scheming villain.
 

CreamCloud0

One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
And if you're choosing a race based on roleplay concerns, well, here's the other reason I hate the Lizardfolk:
Lizardfolk.jpg

A guy who lacks emotion and empathy and looks at me the same way I look at a steak- why would I want to go on a dangerous adventure with him again?
Can I assume this is a lore thing carried over from previous editions? Because it seems a pretty unnecessary thing to put in otherwise, honestly with a few tweaks you could’ve probably made these guys the skinnier cousins of the dragonborn
 



Incenjucar

Legend
Elf Joe: "Hey there Bob, I want to save the forest and my true love, will you help?"
Lizard Bob: "That's your word for mate, right? Sure. I also wish to save the forest and its bountiful resources, and I understand the importance of ensuring the success of your future brood. If I fall in battle, be sure to save a scrap of my skin before you eat me so you can prove to my mate that she should seek a new partner without conflict."
 

CreamCloud0

One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
But why would you?
For the reasons @James Gasik mentioned, and so it doesn’t stereotype an entire sapient species as unfeeling monsters more ready to pounce on their ally’s corpse and prepare to eat it the moment battle is finished rather than try a revivify spell

Is this really so different from defining all orcs as ‘violent strength obsessed savages’ yet people have taken great issues with that description
 

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