Need confirmation on number of AoOs for ranged touch spells

[pawsplay]

Note that a splash weapon is a "ranged weapon." Note that when throwing at a creature, you use a "ranged touch attack." Note that when throwing at an intersection, you use a "ranged attack."

It draws an AoO because it is a ranged weapon, consistent with my opinion on ray spells. It is a ranged weapon attack, that is resolved as a ranged touch.

You can throw a flask of alchemist’s fire as a splash weapon. Treat this attack as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet.

I'm not going to argue it's unambiguous, but it certainly does not conflict with the answer given to this question. According to the Rules Compendium, the FAQ, and at least one reading of the RAW, there is only one AoO for a ranged touch spell. You are free to hold a differing opinion.

 

[Soramain]

This has been an interesting thread.


But I noticed that Jeff never answered a question posed early in the thread: if a bowman uses the full-attack action and fires 2+ arrows, does each one constitute an AOO? On the one hand I can that it does (each is a "ranged attack") yet on the other hand they are all part of the "full attack action" and any given action can only provoke a single AOO. Personally, I feel this is similar to the spellcasting subsuming the attack as part of the casting; the individual ranged attacks are subsumed by the full attack action.

This.

I was reading the thread and thinking "they're arguing about the meaning of attack, when they should be thinking about opportunity."

I'd agree that casting a spell with a ranged touch component provokes two attacks of opportunity, but I'd go on to say that if the two occur simultaneously, there is only a single opportunity. From the SRD:

Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity

If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.

It's not definitive, I know, but it is arguable that casting a ranged touch spell and then deploying it occur simultaneously, constituting a single "opportunity." You would not be able to use two attacks of opportunity, but you'd still get to make one even if the caster made a successful concentration check (there's still a ranged attack) or in situations where the spell allows the caster to make ranged attacks that are not simultaneous with the casting of the spell itself (a la produce flame).

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Thanks for that SRD quote, I was going to use it, on Combat Reflexes and movement. I agree with Jeff that by RAW, it'd generate two AoOs (and a full bow attack would generate one for each attack). But...I don't like that.

As the SRD quote shows, I could literally spend my entire action walking around your space over and over again...and I'd only draw a single AoO from you for doing so. Yet if I dare cast a spell that as part of the casting action requires a ranged attack roll, I generate two? Up to 4 for Scorching Ray? I call BS. Sorry, I really have grown to hate RAW.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But I noticed that Jeff never answered a question posed early in the thread: if a bowman uses the full-attack action and fires 2+ arrows, does each one constitute an AOO? On the one hand I can that it does (each is a "ranged attack") yet on the other hand they are all part of the "full attack action" and any given action can only provoke a single AOO.

The full attack action does not provoke.

The attack (ranged) standard action provokes, but the bowman is not taking the attack (ranged) standard action; he is taking the full attack action.

However, as part of the full attack action, the bowman attacks with a ranged weapon on two separate occasions. And according to PHB p135, "Actions that provoke attacks of opportunity include moving (except as noted below), casting a spell, and attacking with a ranged weapon."

If the bowman is adjacent to someone with Combat Reflexes (and at least a 12 Dex), he'll provoke two AoOs in the course of his full attack action, even though the full attack action does not provoke.

-Hyp.

 

[Jhaelen]

The folks arguing otherwise are simply incorrect

Nope. That's just what YOU think.

But as one final point, consider this: If shocking grasp (and other touch spells) did not have an exception that treated the caster as being armed, would it provoke two AoOs (once for casting, once for the unarmed attack)?

Yes, it would. Because of an important difference: With shocking grasp you can hold the charge. I.e. it is possible to separate the casting from the attack. This isn't possible with ranged touch spells. For those the casting and the ranged attack are inseparable. It's not possible for anyone to act after the casting but before the caster makes the ranged touch attack.

Plus, as I've stated time and again, blindly applying RAW will result in madness. It will lead you into the realm of Pun-Puns, and not into a fun, satisfying rpg session.

Anyway, I have the impression the OP lost interest in this discussion long ago, so this is all pretty much a futile argument for argument's sake.

 

[Vegepygmy]

That's just what YOU think.

Nah. I think it, too.

 

[Flatus Maximus]

Yes, it would. Because of an important difference: With shocking grasp you can hold the charge. I.e. it is possible to separate the casting from the attack. This isn't possible with ranged touch spells. For those the casting and the ranged attack are inseparable. It's not possible for anyone to act after the casting but before the caster makes the ranged touch attack.

I think it would be better to say that when it isn't possible to separate the casting from the attack, then only one AoO is provoked. Spells like produce flame can be cast (possibly provoking an AoO), and then later thrown (possibly provoking another AoO).

 

[azhrei_fje]

Yep, this is my take on it; aiming a ranged touch attack is part of the somatic component of the spell casting. And if the spell doesn't have a somatic component, I'd probably add one.

Problem solved.

 

[irdeggman]

I think it would be better to say that when it isn't possible to separate the casting from the attack, then only one AoO is provoked. Spells like produce flame can be cast (possibly provoking an AoO), and then later thrown (possibly provoking another AoO).

This is how I run it in my game.

But, as I said earlier the RAw tends to support the other interpretatin (i.e., an AoO for casting and an AoO for attacking).

And as I tried to point out earlier the reason why I think the RAW supports this is that yu generate an AoO when attacking with a ranged weapon (note it does not say making a ranged attack - this is an important distinction to keep in mind).

And the RAW (clarified in Complate Arcane and the rules Compendium - say that using rays works like using a ranged weapon.

And when RAW talks about attacking it is using the generic term and not the "action type" - this is supported by the fact that invisibility is broken when you attack (and then it lists examples that are considered "attacks" and are in no way attack "actions") and the RAW also talks about actions that can be done when attacking.

That is why I said that Jeff Wilder was barking up the wrong tree when he was trying to use a generic definition of "action" to capture this instead of the generic "attack". There aren't really examples (or at least no where near as many) of using "action" as the generic word (which actually per the dictionary pretty much means the same thing) as there are for using the generic "attack" instead of "attack action".

Now - I have stated that I don't like but see how the RAW supports it.

The way I handle it is that if the attack is part of the casting (i.e., has to be done at that time instead of over multiple or later rounds) then it only generates 1 AoO (for casting the spell) - otherwise every round an attack is being made then an AoO is generated for the attack (you don't get the ability to cast defensively to eliminate this on subsequent rounds - you can only do it the first round when the spell is cast)

Also when an archer makes a full attack he only generates 1 AoO.

But these are my interpretations (and house-rules) not necessarily per a strict RAW interpretation.

 

[irdeggman]

Yep, this is my take on it; aiming a ranged touch attack is part of the somatic component of the spell casting. And if the spell doesn't have a somatic component, I'd probably add one.

Problem solved.

Well here is where the issue of making it part of the somatic compnent comes into play. IMO is easier to say it part of the concentration on the spell (regardless of somatic component or not)

Psionics have no verbal, material or somatic components and yet function as spells in this regard. Although I don't know of many that actually have you be able to generate an attack over subsequent rounds. There is this "reflexive" one though. And by a strict interpretation of the RAW it would generate an AoO each subsequent round. IMO it is the field not the psion who is actually "attacking" though, since the psion can manifest other powers during this time.

Energy Retort
Psychokinesis [see text]
Level: Psion/wilder 3
Display: Visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal and close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels); see text
Targets: You and creature or object attacking you; see text
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Reflex half or Fortitude half; see text
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 5
Upon manifesting this power, you choose cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. You weave a field of potential energy of the chosen type around your body. The first successful attack made against you in each round during the power’s duration prompts a response from the field with out any effort on your part. The attack may be physical, the effect of a power, or the effect of a spell (including spell-like, supernatural, and extraordinary abilities). An “ectoburst” discharges from the field, targeting the source of the attack and dealing 4d6 points of damage of the chosen energy type. To be affected, a target must be within close range, you must have line of sight and line of effect to it, and you must be able to identify the source of the attack. The ectoburst is a ranged touch attack made using your base attack bonus plus your key ability modifier for your manifesting class.