Need confirmation on number of AoOs for ranged touch spells

[Flatus Maximus]

But, as I said earlier the RAw tends to support the other interpretatin (i.e., an AoO for casting and an AoO for attacking).

I think it comes down to whether or not the ranged touch attack is considered part of the spell casting; since if it is, then according to the Rules Compendium, you only provoke once at the beginning of the casting. I understand the two-AoO interpretation only if the casting and the ranged attack happen at different times; that is, if the ranged attack is not part of the spell casting.

 

[Vegepygmy]

And as I tried to point out earlier the reason why I think the RAW supports this is that yu generate an AoO when attacking with a ranged weapon (note it does not say making a ranged attack - this is an important distinction to keep in mind).

I hope it's not too important, because it's incorrect.

As I pointed out on page 1 of this thread, the basic rule is stated on PHB page 135 (shockingly, under the heading "Combat Basics"), and it is:

"Making a ranged attack provokes attacks of opportunity from opponents that threaten you."

It doesn't say making a ranged attack with a weapon, just making a ranged attack.

 

[irdeggman]

I hope it's not too important, because it's incorrect.

As I pointed out on page 1 of this thread, the basic rule is stated on PHB page 135 (shockingly, under the heading "Combat Basics"), and it is:

"Making a ranged attack provokes attacks of opportunity from opponents that threaten you."

Actually you left off part of that sentence:

Making a ranged attack provokes attacks of opportunity from opponents that threaten you (see below).

And below contains the section on Attacks of Oppotunity (there is no section on that page for Threaten).

It doesn't say making a ranged attack with a weapon, just making a ranged attack.[/quote]

The Rules Compendium has "clarified" this.

Table on Action types (pg 8 lists Attack (ranged) then sends you to page 16.

Pg 16 under Ranged Attacks

You provoke atacks of opportunity when firing or throwing a ranged weapon.

pg 134 under ray

You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can . . .

pg 132 under "weaponlike spells"

Any spell that requires an attack roll is weaponlike. . . Ranged spells include those that require ranged touch attack rolls, such as rays and hurled missile effects. This category also includes spells that generate effects that act as ranged weapons and require ranged attack rolls.

Also specific rules take precedence over general ones.

Rules Compendium pg 5 under "Order of Rules Application"

The D&D game assumes a specific order of rules application: General to specific to exception. A general rule is a basic guideline, but a specific rule takes precedence when applied to the same activity.

pg 135 of the PHB under "Attacks of Opportunity" (more specific rule that general combat):

Actions that provoke attacks of opportunity include moving (except as noted below), casting a spell, and attacking with a ranged weapon.

It is a very essential part of the argument since it has nothing to do with whether or not it is an "action" and the fact that rays are treated like ranged weapons.

 

[Hypersmurf]

... yu generate an AoO when attacking with a ranged weapon (note it does not say making a ranged attack - this is an important distinction to keep in mind).

It says both, in different places.

-Hyp.

 

[akbearfoot]

If the FaQ says that the attack from a ray spell doesn't count as an action at all I don't see the issue...The spell gives them a ranged touch attack, but they are treated as if they did nothing at all.

I think a good comparison would be to casting quickened spells. They don't provoke even though casting a spell normally does. The attacks from say a Scorching ray happen even faster than a quickened spell(swift action), given the FaQ quote from earlier that they dont take any action at all.

If you don't take -any- action, then you cannot drop your guard or get distracted in order to provoke, right?

 

[Vegepygmy]

If you don't take -any- action, then you cannot drop your guard or get distracted in order to provoke, right?

Wrong.

Attacks of opportunity are also "not an action," but if you provoke one from me and I choose to Disarm you as my attack of opportunity, I provoke an attack of opportunity from you even though I'm not taking -any- action when I Disarm you.

Whether the act is an "action" or not is irrelevant to the issue of whether performing it can provoke an attack of opportunity or not.

 

[irdeggman]

It says both, in different places.

-Hyp.

But one is the "general" and the other is the "specific".

Or is there a different "specific" location that also says it?

I could have missed something.

 

[akbearfoot]

Attempting to disarm/start grapple etc isn't really the same thing imo, although I can see why you picked it as an example. A regular AoO doesn't provoke unless you choose to substitute the normal melee attack with a special attack that provokes. The SRD says. You normally provoke if u attempt to disarm, but the feat imp disarm negates the AoO.

I think the same concept applies to the attack granted by ray spells...Normally a ranged attack would provoke. But in the case of ray spells, you are substituting a 'ranged attack' for something that counts as no action, which resolves as a ranged touch.

Look at the spell Produce flame. It's specifically worded to work as either a melee touch attack or as a thrown weapon attack, which is resolved like a ranged touch attack. To my knowledge it is the only such spell worded this way. To me this means you can threaten out to your natural reach and make AoOs with it, but if you make a ranged attack with it its as if you were throwing a weapon which DOES provoke an AoO. That attack is just particularly accurate, hence the touch AC.

The SRD says:
Touch Attacks

Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.



It seems pretty clear that ranged touch spells count as 'Touching an opponent'. The only distinction I see between the 2 is that you cannot make AoOs with ranged touch spells, because AoOs are explicitly only melee attacks. If this text is a contradiction to the table calling for the AoO, then doesn't the text automatically trump the table?

 

[Hypersmurf]

But one is the "general" and the other is the "specific".

Or is there a different "specific" location that also says it?

I could have missed something.

The only 'specific' case is that the Attack Action (Ranged) provokes an AoO (p141).

The only mentions of an attack with a ranged weapon provoking are as an example of a distracting act (p137), or as an example of actions that provoke (p135). While they're given as examples, there's nowhere in the rules that states this to base the examples on.

p135 also states 'making a ranged attack provokes'... but given that the section is a summary and discussing the standard action, Attack, it's not clear that this isn't just restating p141 (the Attack Action (Ranged) provokes).

-Hyp.

 

[irdeggman]

The only 'specific' case is that the Attack Action (Ranged) provokes an AoO (p141).

The only mentions of an attack with a ranged weapon provoking are as an example of a distracting act (p137), or as an example of actions that provoke (p135). While they're given as examples, there's nowhere in the rules that states this to base the examples on.

p135 also states 'making a ranged attack provokes'... but given that the section is a summary and discussing the standard action, Attack, it's not clear that this isn't just restating p141 (the Attack Action (Ranged) provokes).

-Hyp.

Now if you look at the Rules Compendium (which is what I had referenced in my earlier posts) - it makes it much clearer.

(page numbers are from the Rules Compendium)

The new and revised table of actions (pg 8)

Says Attack (Ranged) and page 16.

Pg 16 goes on about ranged attacks and says

You provoke attacks of ooportunity when firing or throwing a ranged weapon.

The other places you list are very definitely cosnidered "general" rules while the section under Ranged Attacks (in the Rules Complendium).

Pg 18 (RC) talks about "Provoking Attacks of Opportunity". (Specific topic)

Under "Focused Act" - it sends you to the table of action which in turn sends you the the section on Ranged Attacks.

General to Specific so I think my reference still stands as the most specific material and thus the most authoritative on that specific subject per the RAW.

Again, I might have missed something - if so please point it out to me.


Also note that I am only defending the RAW interpretation that the OP's question on whether or not there are 2 AoO provoked or not is that the RAW supports 2 AoO. I do not like it and go with the attack is part of the casting interpretation, but admit that the RAW tends to support an opposite interpretation.