D&D 5E New class options in Tasha

[DND_Reborn]

Except for the part where it's not remotely like that.

LOL sure it is. (OK, my example was extreme, but come on this rule is also...)

The entire point of Spell Versatility is for groups that play at a slower pace, so those players who make poor spell choices can swap them out sooner.

So, if your groups levels at a pace reasonable to the game's design, you should not need this rule. If you still use it when you don't need it, you are artificially boosting all known spell casters (sure, we've focused on Sorcerers due to their comparison to Wizards, but there are also Bards, Rangers, and Warlocks).

 

[Aldarc]

So "second only to wizards" is still more than a 100 less spells* than wizards? And sorcerers can have at max 15 known spells known at a given time while wizards can max out at 25 spells at a given time?

* and likely growing

 

[DND_Reborn]

Which Wizards can't access their entire spell list.... so that is a big part of the issue.

If Wizards had access to their entire spell list, just as Clerics, Druids, and Paladins do, then there would be no ground for arguing against Spell Versatility, but they don't and in terms of flavor it doesn't make sense to give them full access.

And again, Sorcerers thing is Metamagic--which a lot of people seem to conveniently be ignoring.

 

[Micah Sweet]

What new mechanics? Cantrip Versatility? pfft whatever to that...

Otherwise they aren't really getting anything crazy.

I was mostly talking about new subclasses, which both classes get in excess to the wizard.
Edit:
That's historically, not just in Tasha's.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I was mostly talking about new subclasses, which both classes get in excess to the wizard.
Edit:
That's historically, not just in Tasha's.

Oh, sorry. I have only seen the UA Class Features which are supposed to be going into Tasha's. I haven't seen or heard of any new subclasses for Clerics or Druids yet...

 

[TwoSix]

So, the argument that Sorcerer's have a short spell list is crap. Sure, they have few known spells, but again the balance is metamagic. And the game already allows them to swap out bad spell choices when they level.

Wizards have an average of 11 extra spells per level. Sorcerer's spell list isn't short, but a Wizard's is ridiculously long.

But really, I'm not sure why we're trying to convince each other. The rule is already in the book, and it'll be up to the individual groups as to whether to use it or not.

 

[Aldarc]

Which Wizards can't access their entire spell list.... so that is a big part of the issue.

Potentially they can though, but it requires study and recovery of spell books and tomes. Even then, do wizards necessarily want every spell?

And again, Sorcerers thing is Metamagic--which a lot of people seem to conveniently be ignoring.

In the same way that the wizard's thing is their spellbook.

 

[DND_Reborn]

But really, I'm not sure why we're trying to convince each other.

I'm just doing it while I am waiting for my job interview this afternoon.

And I agree, Wizards have too many spells. There are many spells you could remove IMO because they are more appropriate to other classes, but that is an entirely different issue.

Even then, do wizards necessarily want every spell?

Nope, see my comment above.

In the same way that the wizard's thing is their spellbook.

LOL which is what? Up to 18 ritual spells (only half or so are actually really useful) and the threat of losing it, having it stolen, paying thousands of gold to make a back-up or replacement.

Yep, that is so incredibly awesome it is as good as metamagic. (Hint: it really isn't anywhere close.)

 

[Helldritch]

In 37 years of D&D I have never ever seen or heard of a wizard with all known spells in his or her spell book. At most, you might see half (and I haven't even seen half).

This means that the wizard is really at a realistic list of about 150 vs the the 185 of the sorcerer's. That rule is full BS. Do the si.ulatuons yourselves. If you are honest with the result you'll get, you'll have no choice but to agree.

Yes our simulations were white room with a few builds done just to check. But these few tries were all indicating the same results. That is why this rule should not see print.

 

[Aldarc]

LOL which is what? Up to 18 ritual spells (only half or so are actually really useful) and the threat of losing it, having it stolen, paying thousands of gold to make a back-up or replacement.

Yep, that is so incredibly awesome it is as good as metamagic. (Hint: it really isn't anywhere close.)

Just so we are clear here: "" doesn't make well-reasoned arguments magically appear out of unsupported opinions tinged with sass.