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5E New class options in Tasha


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Mistwell

Legend
That sounds so wrong. I don't like the rule either, but the sorcerer being more versatile is bollocks.
Being able to switch a single spell at a time does not make you versatile. It makes you able to adapt just a tiny bit.

Adapting better is being more versatile. They are the same thing.

It's not such a little bit. Again, in my experience most wizards swap one spell per long rest on average, not a bunch of them. It's rare that it's a bunch of them. Most of the versatility comes from just one. There are diminishing returns beyond the first. It's a single knock spell, or a single levitate spell, or whatever might be required to help with the next challenge down the line.

The sorcerer does not even know as much spells as the wizard can prepare.

They know ALL the spells on their list, to the Wizard only knowing two per level after level one, unless they find magic items to enhance that which we don't assume. And that spell list they know is literally the second largest spell list in the game.
 

Hohige

Explorer
Adapting better is being more versatile. They are the same thing.

It's not such a little bit. Again, in my experience most wizards swap one spell per long rest on average, not a bunch of them. It's rare that it's a bunch of them. Most of the versatility comes from just one. There are diminishing returns beyond the first. It's a single knock spell, or a single levitate spell, or whatever might be required to help with the next challenge down the line.

I couldn't agree more :)
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I'm still struggling to see how the Sorcerer being able to replace ONE spell known per long rest in an optional rule variant somehow destroys the versatility of the Wizard who can replace all their spells prepared per long rest.
And can cast their rituals without preparing them, and have more prepared spells.
 

Hohige

Explorer
And can cast their rituals without preparing them, and have more prepared spells.

That's not the point, man. The point is that the Wizard needs DM fiat and a lot of money / downtime to acquire spells in his spellbook, while the sorcerer now automatically knows his entire spell list. If it is Divine Soul knows automatically 2 lists.
This puts the Wizard at a clear disadvantage.
This is the point under analysis.
 

the sorcerer now automatically knows his entire spell list.

No he doesnt. He has access to his whole list.

Which at the end of a Long rest he can switch out one spell known for a different one from that list.

Which for all intents and purposes is not a big deal.

The Wizard can switch out ALL his spells known at the end of a Long rest for a totally different loadout, and also knows more spells than the Sorcerer at all material times, with that gap only growing as the Wizard advances in level.
 

Dausuul

Legend
It's not such a little bit. Again, in my experience most wizards swap one spell per long rest on average, not a bunch of them.
My experience is that wizards usually swap zero spells per long rest. The average is slightly above zero, but it's well below one. Versatility depends far more on the number and variety of spells you can put in your loadout, allowing you to adapt to challenges on the fly, than on your ability to alter the loadout on a long rest.
 

No he doesnt. He has access to his whole list.

Which at the end of a Long rest he can switch out one spell known for a different one from that list.

Which for all intents and purposes is not a big deal.

The Wizard can switch out ALL his spells known at the end of a Long rest for a totally different loadout, and also knows more spells than the Sorcerer at all material times, with that gap only growing as the Wizard advances in level.

This.

Just because you can have any spell prepared does not mean you will have the correct one prepared.

And if you think that you can just casually change one of 6 spells without fundamentally altering your ability to contribute, but having 14 spells plus is nothing but a minor shadow of potential... I honestly don't know what to say. The dismissal of the wizard's overwhelming advantage on a day to day basis, in favor of their being a situation where over a week the sorcerer might be able to get perfect information and tailor themselves to match it is just mind boggling to me.
 

Mistwell

Legend
I really do like the option someone in this thread proposed that they let a wizard swap one spell per short rest.

THAT will go a long way to restoring their versatility.
 



Yes I am aware I can make any rule I want in my personal game. Thank you Captain Obvious.

I am saying it should be an official rule option, along with the new sorcerer long rest swap rule.

Ah, well that isn't going to happen. I suppose it could happen if they altered the rules in Tasha's enough, but since it would make the wizard scribing rules and all of the Savant rules pointless, I doubt they are going to make a rule like that.
 

Mistwell

Legend
Ah, well that isn't going to happen. I suppose it could happen if they altered the rules in Tasha's enough, but since it would make the wizard scribing rules and all of the Savant rules pointless, I doubt they are going to make a rule like that.

Why would it make those useless when it's just one per short rest? Also, doesn't mean you can scribe something you swapped. You'd still want more spells in your spellbook regardless.

As for savant rules...I cannot recall what you're referring to with that?
 

Vael

Hero
I really do like the option someone in this thread proposed that they let a wizard swap one spell per short rest.

THAT will go a long way to restoring their versatility.

I don't mind the rule, but here's one I like better:

The Wizard can instead swap a number of spells equal to their Intelligence modifier when they use their Arcane Recovery feature. Each spell prepared, like in Spell versatility, must be of the same level as the spell lost.

So, not trading out Counterspell for Scorching Ray, for example, but possibly Counterspell for Fireball.

Tying it to Arcane Recovery means it'll be at the same time a Wizard is restocking spells midday anyway, so it's a good time to reconsider spell loadout, without just allowing the Wizard too freely trade out spells.
 

IME Wizards and Clerics rarely if ever swap out spells anyway.

Maybe spells like remove curse or really specific niche spells like that from time to time to do a very specific task.

The sort of spells you'd never walk around with prepared most days and that a sorceter would never actually even select due to its limited use.
 

As for savant rules...I cannot recall what you're referring to with that?

Most people seem to have no idea those rules exist. Level 2 wizards almost all get a "savant" ability, to cut their gold cost and time spent scribing spells from certain schools in half.

As for why scribing would be rendered obsolete. Why bother spending time and money to get a new spell, if after an hour's rest you can have it anyways? You can just stick with the spells you learn over leveling up, and if you need something else, take a short rest.
 

Dausuul

Legend
Maybe spells like remove curse or really specific niche spells like that from time to time to do a very specific task.

The sort of spells you'd never walk around with prepared most days and that a sorceter would never actually even select due to its limited use.
And even with the new rule, you won't see sorcerers swapping in remove curse, on account of it's not on the sorcerer list to begin with.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
If anyone cares, I like spell versatility, and also think it short changes the wizard.

I like spell versatility because I want to be able to assume that a high level caster can provide a reasonably well known amount of utility, at least with warning. This is so I don't have to customize adventures for the specific spell choices of PCs.

I like spell versatility because it reduces the trap option problems with some of those classes.

---

But, because I think it short changes wizards, I upgraded the wizard's spellbook.

Wizards are able to cast any spell from their spellbook, it just takes longer and requires them to hold their spellbook (as they are literally reading it from the spellbook, as opposed to performing it from memory).

This, with week-long long (gritty) rests, ensures that a Wizard's versatility is unparalleled. But at the same time, if the party only has a bard, they can get access to teleportation circle or scrying or the like at the cost of downtime.

(A wizard might have to pay a one-time fee to buy the scroll in question while a bard/sorcerer wouldn't, but once they had it they could cast it from the spellbook without taking 1 week to swap it in and 1 week to swap it out).
 

Mistwell

Legend
I don't mind the rule, but here's one I like better:

The Wizard can instead swap a number of spells equal to their Intelligence modifier when they use their Arcane Recovery feature. Each spell prepared, like in Spell versatility, must be of the same level as the spell lost.

So, not trading out Counterspell for Scorching Ray, for example, but possibly Counterspell for Fireball.

Tying it to Arcane Recovery means it'll be at the same time a Wizard is restocking spells midday anyway, so it's a good time to reconsider spell loadout, without just allowing the Wizard too freely trade out spells.

I love it. Yes, this is better.
 

Mistwell

Legend
Most people seem to have no idea those rules exist. Level 2 wizards almost all get a "savant" ability, to cut their gold cost and time spent scribing spells from certain schools in half.

As for why scribing would be rendered obsolete. Why bother spending time and money to get a new spell, if after an hour's rest you can have it anyways? You can just stick with the spells you learn over leveling up, and if you need something else, take a short rest.

Because you can only get one that way per long rest, and it's not permanently in your spellbook.
 

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