D&D 5E New class options in Tasha

[TwoSix]

This means that the wizard is really at a realistic list of about 150 vs the the 185 of the sorcerer's. That rule is full BS. Do the si.ulatuons yourselves. If you are honest with the result you'll get, you'll have no choice but to agree.

I have and I still disagree, so I'm not sure where that leaves us.

I'll be allowing this rule in my game, and I expect to see the ratio of wizards to other classes to not change at all. People didn't play wizards much anyway, and I expect that to stay the same.

 

[Todd Roybark]

You were dying. Big whoop

Which is the same I feel about going down to -3 HP in AD&D..."Big Whoop"

mean, you're talking a 2nd level spell so Dispel Magic automatically cancels it.

The Bard is the one with the Dispel Magic spell..(Sad Trombone)

And 4 trolls against a party of 3 10th level PCs is hardly a difficult fight IME... but without knowing the particulars... who can say?

Terrain and Luck make all the difference...just like in AD&D...just like in real life.

Oh, and was the monk using Patient Defense? Did she realize perhaps Disengaging would be better?

Please don't try to prove that my group or players are idiots...it is rude.
The Monk due to the cavern terrain, made a decision to stay put which forced another troll to have to move using a different passage which allowed said troll to be slain by a Firebolt cast by the AT.

I treat you, and others, with respect and don't automatically assume others are idiots or "playing wrong". I don't automatically try to invalidate other poster's points so as to ignore them...I try to listen.
It would be nice to get the same courtesy.

I'm not arguing against your feelings, there is no point...your feelings are yours.
I'm merely saying dnd4vr, based off your posts that I have read over the years, I'm Old School like you, and my feelings about 5e are different.

Improving the Sorcerer does not weaken the Wizard. Can anyone point to actual harm the Wizard is sustaining from this option?

Hurt feelings does not constitute actual harm, in this situation.

I have the theme song from the TV show the Jeffersons stuck in my head...so I will use this example.

The Wizard suffers no real harm, if the Sorcerer "moves on up" to the penthouse level.
The Wizard still does everything it did before, just as well as the class did before.
The Wizard player, just feels less powerful, because they don't want to share the Penthouse level.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Just to build off of @Helldritch's post, here is an actual PC of mine who is a Wizard 12 (among other things ) and her spell book:

Spoiler: Spellbook

* FIRST LEVEL SPELLS *
Alarm (R)
Burning Hands
Charm Person
Color Spray
Comprehend Languages (R)
Detect Magic (R)
False Life
Feather Fall
Find Familiar (R)
Identify (R)
Illusory Script (R)
Longstrider
Mage Armor
Magic Missle
Shield
Sleep
Tenser's Floating Disk (R)
Thunderwave
Unseen Servant (R)

* SECOND LEVEL SPELLS *
Arcane Lock
Darkvision
Detect Thoughts
Enlarge/Reduce
Flaming Sphere
Gentle Repose (R)
Hold Person
Invisibility
Knock
Levitate
Locate Object
Magic Mouth (R)
Magic Weapon
Nystal's Magic Aura
See Invisibility
Spider Climb
Suggestion
Web

* THIRD LEVEL SPELLS *
Blink
Catnap
Clairvoyance
Counterspell
Dispel Magic
Feign Death (R)
Fireball
Fly
Gaseous Form
Haste
Leomund's Tiny Hut (R)
Life Transference
Lighting Bolt
Melf's Minute Meteors
Phantom Steed (R)
Protection from Energy
Sending
Sleet Storm
Slow
Stinking Cloud
Water Breathing (R)

* FOURTH LEVEL SPELLS *
Dimension Door
Fire Shield
Greater Invisibility
Hallucinatory Terran
Ice Storm
Leomund's Secret Chest
Mord's Faithful Hound
Mord's Private Sanctum
Otiluke's Resilient Sphere

* FIFTH LEVEL SPELLS *
Bigby's Hand
Cone of Cold
Contact Other Plane (R)
Far Step
Hold Monster
Rary's Telepathic Bond
Seeming
Telekinesis
Teleportation Circle
Wall of Force
Wall of Light
Wall of Stone

* SIXTH LEVEL SPELLS *
Contingency
Disintegrate
Drawmij's Instant Summons (R)
Globe of Invulnerability
Otiluke's Freezing Sphere

Now, for the comparison:

This shows the number of Wizard spells, Sorcerer spells, and my PC's spells in her spellbook of spell levels 1 -6.

As you can see, the Sorcerer spell list has more spells than my PC at every level. If you review my spellbook, I don't think it is skimpy by any means.

So, while Wizard spell lists are longer, Wizards don't have that many compared to the full list of Sorcerers IME.

Granted, I can prepared 16 spells per day (INT 18), but a level 12 Sorcerer would have 12 known--only 4 less. But it would also have 3 metamagic options.

Overall, a much greater spell selection for the Sorcerer and 3 metamagics vs. my smaller spell selection but 4 more I can choose from.

Sorry, but give a Sorcerer Ritual Caster and they really are better casters overall that Wizards IMO. YMMV of course.

 

[DND_Reborn]

The Bard is the one with the Dispel Magic spell.

Nothing prevents the Bard from casting it on themselves unless that was part of the suggestion spell.

Please don't try to prove that my group or players are idiots...it is rude.

As I said, without particulars I can't know what you did, what choices you made, etc. I also posted in my response to you how players in my own group acted foolishly--and consequently if their PCs had died they would have deserved it. But, again by the design of 5E, if you play reasonably well, the game is easy.

Can anyone point to actual harm the Wizard is sustaining from this option?

It makes them virtually obsolete as myself and others have shown repeatedly.

 

[TwoSix]

Sorry, but give a Sorcerer Ritual Caster and they really are better casters overall that Wizards IMO. YMMV of course.

And over the course of a long rest, the Sorcerer 12 can replace one spell out of those 133 available, and the Wizard 12 can replace all 16 out of their available 84.

I still think the difference of opinion here is based on the expected frequency of occurrence of chained long rests, the types of rests that allow the non-wizard casters to rebuild their entire spell portfolio. I simply don't see them happening that frequently in my games.

 

[Todd Roybark]

"Virtually Obsolete"...your doctor can't treat "virtual pain".....what actual harm is the class suffering?

If your neighbor renovates their house, their home Improvement has no actual impact to your own home.

You might feel worse, because of their changes, like some people feel when one of their friends gets very fit...but your actual circumstances have not really changed much.

Metamagic is not equal to the Wizard class. It just isn't.

When I was just a DM in 5e I didn't believe that. When I started being able to be a player in 5e, it is more visible.

You don't need a Wizard in a party, right now in 5e. By your reasoning the Wizard is already obosolete.

You don't need a Wizard in a party....
"It would be a lot cooler if you'd did"...though.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I simply don't see them happening that frequently in my games.

That's fair.

Like we discussed earlier, a lot does depend on the game style. We have a lot of long rests during an "adventure" because our adventures are long events, not a session or two. So, for our table the ability to swap out even one spell on a long rest would be very significant.

Again, this rule is meant for tables that level more slowly than the designed intent so feel they need more chances to swap out bad spell choices. That is what is for. So, IMO tables who level quickly shouldn't feel the need to use it.

Anyway, it is optional like everything else said, and my interview is coming up, so that's enough having fun for now.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Metamagic is not equal to the Wizard class. It just isn't.

Now you're comparing a class feature to the entire class? No, thanks. Enjoy your day.

 

[Hohige]

And over the course of a long rest, the Sorcerer 12 can replace one spell out of those 133 available, and the Wizard 12 can replace all 16 out of their available 84.

I still think the difference of opinion here is based on the expected frequency of occurrence of chained long rests, the types of rests that allow the non-wizard casters to rebuild their entire spell portfolio. I simply don't see them happening that frequently in my games.

The problem comes with Divine Soul and acesss to 2 entire lists.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

And over the course of a long rest, the Sorcerer 12 can replace one spell out of those 133 available, and the Wizard 12 can replace all 16 out of their available 84.

I still think the difference of opinion here is based on the expected frequency of occurrence of chained long rests, the types of rests that allow the non-wizard casters to rebuild their entire spell portfolio. I simply don't see them happening that frequently in my games.

Yes probably. I really cannot properly imagine the sort of game where there wasn't significant downtime and the characters didn't plan what they're going to do next. But I guess a lot of official modules are just dungeons where the characters kill monsters in rooms and go from level one to ten in two weeks of in-game time or something bizarre like that. I have never played that way though. (Sorry if the characterisation was inaccurate or unfair, but this was the only scenario where I can imagine increasing the number of spells you have access to by tenfold wouldn't be a massive game chancer.)