D&D 5E New class options in Tasha

[TwoSix]

The normal spell list is already strong. But have two full spell list at the cost of a single long rest??????? If you find this is balanced...

You do remember they get access to ONE single spell after a long rest, not the whole list.

You are probably not the only one. But think about it. You'll see things our way. A lot of the cleric and druid spells are niche by definition and intent. Not so with the arcane list. Having the whole spell list, and in some cases two (a subclass) or even all spell lists (lore bards) is incredibly powerful! At level up, it forces the player to think carefully about his/her choice. At a simple long rest (especially the non gritty variant), it is simply overpowered. If you ever saw a powergamer or min/maxer, you'd understand.

I am a powergamer, and this really only has a small amount of weight in terms of build consideration. You already memorize/learn most of the best spells on your list already, there simply aren't that many spells that will become encounter winners in niche situations that you'll also know about ahead of time. Maybe some divinations for planning in long downtime situations?

 

[Helldritch]

You do remember they get access to ONE single spell after a long rest, not the whole list.

No, you are absolutely wrong there. It is one from a minimum of two whole lists for a few subclasses and ALL SPELL LISTS for the Lore Bard. If that is not over powered nothing is. That it is one spell per long rest is irrelevant. It is two whole lists or the entire lists that you will choose from. That alone is worth more than the magic initiate feat where you are limited to a first level spell. Now you get that feature for absolutely free.

I am a powergamer, and this really only has a small amount of weight in terms of build consideration. You already memorize/learn most of the best spells on your list already, there simply aren't that many spells that will become encounter winners in niche situations that you'll also know about ahead of time. Maybe some divinations for planning in long downtime situations?

Divinations? This is a standard tactic at my tables. When going for an adventure, any group worth its salt will know a lot of what there is to know about the layout, potential enemies and even possible reinforcements. The lore bard will have immediately the best spells at his disposal and the sorcerer and warlock will also have the best spells at their disposal. Not always, but most of the time and it will be a certainty if they have time to prepare. I have a whole group of power gamers. We talked about this rule and even them warned me not to use it because they will use it to its fullest. It took them less than a minute to see the potential abuses. These are old timers that won many tournaments in our younger years. And even my "young" (our youngest is only 34...) saw the same potential. Hell... even one of the younger DM that I coach (he's 14) called me to check if he had seen correctly.

At lower levels, 1 to 6, it will not change too much things. But as you get higher level and have access to more powerful reconaissance/divination tools, the problem will escalate almost exponentially. Just a wizard eye used before entering a dungeon/castle/town/complex will reveal a lot. When you can change whatever you want before getting in... unless you're the kind of DM that put time constrains in every adventures/missions/sessions the abuses will be there.

 

[Hohige]

No, you are absolutely wrong there. It is one from a minimum of two whole lists for a few subclasses and ALL SPELL LISTS for the Lore Bard.

I beg to disagree. Bard has your own spell list, Spells added from Magical Secrets is a specific feature that is fixed, Versatile Spell doesn't work here.
"Whenever you finish a long rest, you can replace one spell you learned from this Spellcasting feature "
Magical Secrets isn't Spellcasting feature.

 

[DnD Warlord]

If Wizards are now spontaneous casters in 5e it's only fair that everyone else gets a limited ability to change spells every day. And my goodness, will it be a welcome change.

I do wonder if the sorcerer can swap out every night (long rest) doesn’t that make them MORE versatile then the wizard who can’t swap spells in his book??
Example: playing a 3rd level wizard and a 3rd level sorcerer neither knows knock... only one can learn it over the extended rest...and it isn’t the one we think of as versatile

 

[Helldritch]

I beg to disagree. Bard has your own spell list, Spells added from Magical Secrets is a specific feature that is fixed, Versatile Spell doesn't work here.

Being able to choose a spell from any spell list pretty much means any spell list. And now you will not be stuck with your choice until you level up but you will change the spell at the end of a long rest. This, again, means a lot of possible spells. Acutally, all of them.

 

[Stalker0]

People are saying this change would lower the Wizard in favor of the sorc...I actually think it’s the cleric that gets hit.

divine spells are on the whole weaker than arcane ones...but with the benefit of complete spell flexibility. A cleric has full access to his list through rests. Any niche spell that the cleric needs is one rest away.

giving that to the sorc is a tremendous power boost, and it weakens the divine niche

 

[Helldritch]

I do wonder if the sorcerer can swap out every night (long rest) doesn’t that make them MORE versatile then the wizard who can’t swap spells in his book??
Example: playing a 3rd level wizard and a 3rd level sorcerer neither knows knock... only one can learn it over the extended rest...and it isn’t the one we think of as versatile

It does. The weakness of the sorcerer has been eliminated and with their capacity to add spell slot with sorcery point or even their metamagic... wizards are now obselete.

 

[Hohige]

Being able to choose a spell from any spell list pretty much means any spell list.

Wrong, Spellcasting feature from bard is restricted by Bard List.

Spell Versatility:
Whenever you finish a long rest, you can replace one spell you learned from this Spellcasting feature with another spell from the bard spell list. The new spell must be the same level as the spell you replace.

 

[Kurotowa]

No, you are absolutely wrong there. It is one from a minimum of two whole lists for a few subclasses and ALL SPELL LISTS for the Lore Bard.

It's not true for Lore Bards. Spell Versatility specifically lets you swap spells gained from the Spellcasting class feature. Spells gained from the Magical Secrets class features are different and not eligible. As for the Divine Soul Sorcerer... it's not power creep if you're buffing something starting a lower level.

Divinations? This is a standard tactic at my tables.

...

I have a whole group of power gamers.

I think these are important clues that your group of players and their preferred playstyle is significantly outside the norm for most groups. So if this specific optional rule would cause issues with your specific group of players, then by all means, disallow it for your table. That's why it's optional. But that doesn't mean it isn't a useful and well balanced rule for many, even most, of the play groups out there.

 

[Helldritch]

People are saying this change would lower the Wizard in favor of the sorc...I actually think it’s the cleric that gets hit.

divine spells are on the whole weaker than arcane ones...but with the benefit of complete spell flexibility. A cleric has full access to his list through rests. Any niche spell that the cleric needs is one rest away.

giving that to the sorc is a tremendous power boost, and it weakens the divine niche

So does the druid. This rule is totally OP! Make a divine soul sorcerer, all the healing you need and all the niche spells of the cleric at your finger tip. Who needs a cleric? Who needs a wizard? We have sorcerers and lore bards to do the trick.