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5E New class options in Tasha

Azzy

Newtype
Not really. Well, technically they have the same number of slots, but in practice arcane recovery means wizards get more slots if they take a short rest, and sorcerers get less spells overall because metamagic eats away sorcery points if not slots themselves.

You heard it right, Wizards cast more spells than sorcerers.
Yeah, I forgot to mention that as I was just thinking about the spell slot table. However, you're right—Arcane Recovery gives them effectively more spell slots. I should add the proviso that the sorcerer's Flexible Casting allows them to trade Sorcery Points to spell slots and vice versa (though, using Sorcery Points this way gives you less to use on Metamagic or subclass-specific abilities that are powered by Sorcery Points that compete for usage).
 

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Azzy

Newtype
And yet that sorcerer over a series of a short downtime can swap out EVERY SINGLE KNOWN SPELL FOR A SPELL THEY HAVE NEVER KNOWN BEFORE at no cost other than the time. That is INSANE versatility.

So? They have to spend a lot of days to do this. However, it's a complete non-issue considering that this will almost never be done. Like someone else pointed out, players of classes with prepared spells rarely change out their prepared loadout in this edition.

Also, I never said it was game breaking, but it is overly powerful and removes one of the two things a wizard is supposed to be good at: versatility and rituals.

That's why I said overpowered or gamebreaking. Just covering the bases, not just for your particular argument but for anyone else that would make that claim or conflate the two).

That is why I also suggested a downtime rule of 1 workweek per spell level to swap out additional known spells. Even a number of long rests equal to the spell level of the new swapped spell would be somewhat reasonable.

So, swapping out for a 1st level spell, one long rest.
Swapping out for a 2nd level spell, two long rests.
Etc.
Swapping out for a 9th level spell, nine long rests.

But that is the best I can do that to me would be at least better balanced.

If you feel that's how you should house rule, that sounds decent. I don't have a problem with the existing rule (obviously 😉), so I'm fine with it as-is.

If you still don't see how it is unbalanced and harming wizards, I am guessing you aren't a fan of the class. Because, unless you want to focus on ritual casting, you might as well play a sorcerer and enjoy those metamagics that you get as well. ;)

This last argument doesn't actually speak of this ability overpowering the sorcerer. And, nah, I dig the wizard—I really want to play an abjurer at some point (and some of the other subclasses, too). Ritual Casting, Arcane Recovery, Spell Mastery, and the various features of the subclasses all interest me to play a wizard. Just like Metamagic and the various subclasses interest me in playing a sorcerer. Each class offers something—especially through their subclasses—that make them compelling.
 



dnd4vr

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
So? They have to spend a lot of days to do this
And in the games why this rule was suggested is because they take a long time to level (IRL and often in game time), so spending a week to learn 7 brand spanking new spells is not a big time-constraint. Also, it is the simple fact they can learn all new spells! That makes them an ultimately versatile caster.

Now, I am not just picking on Sorcerers et. al on this. Clerics, Druids, and Paladins are even worse offenders when it comes to versatility. They already have access to their entire spell list, but by at least balancing that out with selecting prepared spells--it means they can easily find themselves in a situation where they don't have the proper spell prepared.

Just covering the bases, not just for your particular argument but for anyone else that would make that claim or conflate the two).
Fair enough. :)

If you feel that's how you should house rule, that sounds decent. I don't have a problem with the existing rule (obviously 😉), so I'm fine with it as-is.
No, we won't be using it. Period. I was more offering that as a compromise for tables that want this but understand it is too much as written.

Eh, not really. The sorcerer has suffered from having too few Sorcery Points and too few Spells Known at higher levels.
Sure they were. Metamagics make up for a LOT in this balance issue. The SP are fine, they are meant to be there when you need them, not all the time.

I will agree Sorcerers get hosed a bit on the known spells. We've house-ruled them up to 18 (start with 2, gain 1 per level up to 17th). But that only affects them at 12th level and higher--which most games never reach so meh.
 

dnd4vr

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
Yeah, balanced, when a wizard can replace 1.5 sorcerers. That is sure balanced.
At level 1, and then not again until level 18, can a Wizard cast more spells than a Sorcerer. Since Sorcerers can cast as many or more spells per long rest for 16 of the 20 levels, I would say they can cast more in general and certainly a wizard does NOT replace 1.5 sorcerers.

You should check your math. ;)

EDIT: you do have the odd subclass feature here or there which might apply to change this, but that's about it...
 


MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
At level 1, and then not again until level 18, can a Wizard cast more spells than a Sorcerer. Since Sorcerers can cast as many or more spells per long rest for 16 of the 20 levels, I would say they can cast more in general and certainly a wizard does NOT replace 1.5 sorcerers.

You should check your math. ;)

EDIT: you do have the odd subclass feature here or there which might apply to change this, but that's about it...
I don't know who plays this sorcerer that never metamagics and always gets to cast almost the same number of spells a wizard does -at that point I don't see a point to playing a sorcerer-. Because when you are a sorcerer, you are using metamagic over and over. There are little points left for doing anything else. Most of the time you end up sacrificing slots for even more metamagic (and subclass abilities), and end up casting even less spells per day than a normal spellcaster would. There is a lot of pressure over sorcery points, I don't think I've ever used them to make a spell slot after hitting third level.
 

And yet that sorcerer over a series of a short downtime can swap out EVERY SINGLE KNOWN SPELL FOR A SPELL THEY HAVE NEVER KNOWN BEFORE at no cost other than the time. That is INSANE versatility.

It is the same versatility a cleric or druid has. At 5th level the Wizard knew Fireball and Animate Dead. My 5th level cleric knows the entire list. For 3 days we rested and I prepared Animate Dead to create/control 4 zombies. When setting out on the adventuring day I swapped many spells out for other ones.

The Wizard knew two spells.

The feature in Tasha's is much less powerful than what prepared casters already do.

If you think wizards are falling behind, just provide more scrolls and spellbooks.
As the DM you have full power to balance this out.

Honestly, I used to feel the same as you, but upon further reflection it isn't a big deal.
The feature takes the pressure off the player to select the optimal choice for Spells Known. It allows them to take either more situational spells, or something they want to try out, or a suboptimal role play choice...without fear they are stuck with a dud spell for a level.
 

It does. The weakness of the sorcerer has been eliminated and with their capacity to add spell slot with sorcery point or even their metamagic... wizards are now obselete.

We've strayed into the realm of hyperbole.

After a long rest, the Sorcerer can swap out a single spell for a spell of the same level.

After a long rest, the Wizard can swap out every single spell they had prepared, for whatever spells they want, of any level, as long as those spells are in their spell book.

I guess the Wizard is 'limited' to spells in his spell-book while the Sorcerer isnt. Of course, the Wizard also has the better spell list to go to than the Sorcerer. A much better spell list in fact.

The Wizard still maintains an advantage of 3-4 more spells prepared than the Sorcerer giving him greater versatility in actual play.

Past 10th level, this gap increases. A 20th level Sorcerer has 15 spells prepared. His Wizard buddy has 25 prepared.

Maybe to you that's 'obsolete' but it aint to me.
 

I didn't read all the pages so I'm not sure exactly which points are being argued...but to dip my toes in a bit...

Conceptually, part of Sorcerer's traditional identity is that they have less unique spells available to them each day (and replace them rarely), but more spell slots. Compared to a wizard, they get power over flexibility.

Part of a Wizard's traditional identity is that they have more unique spells available to them each day, and can change them daily from their spellbook, but have less spell slots. They can theoretically learn every spell on their list. Compared to a sorcerer, they get flexibility over power. In addition, if you need a rare spell, a wizard is both the one most likely to have access to it (since their spellbook will have more spells than a sorcerer knows), and the one capable of gaining access to it if they don't (because if they can find it they can add it to their spellbook, while the sorcerer can only learn new spells at the right levels).

In 5e, a Sorcerer either has the same spell power as a wizard (if they use all of their sorcery points to power their spells) or less spell power if they use it for metamagic. This is something I considered a problem that disfavored the sorcerer.

Another problem for the 5e sorcerer is that their flexibility is too restricted. Their spell list is too small, and their known spells are too limited.

This rule in Tasha's attempts to fix only one of these problems--that their known spells are too limited. The problem for me is that, while it partially does that job, it ruin the concept of the wizard being the one who is most able to gain access to an unknown spell. With this change, if there is a spell on both lists that the party needs access to, instead of having the wizard go look for it (maybe involving a quest), the party just takes a long rest and the sorcerer prepares it tomorrow. In fact, unless you don't use any of the rules for creating scrolls, the sorcerer can potentially make scrolls for every spell on the sorcerer list this way, and then switch to their preferred known spells and still have their entire list available to them that way. The wizard would have to have the entire wizard spell list in their spellbook to pull off the same feat. The wizard can only do that for the spells in their spellbook, which would almost always be less than the number of spells on the sorcerer list*.

Groups that lack downtime and have adventuring days = sessions, might not see this problem at all due to the fast advancement in 5e. If you are only taking 2 or 3 long rests before leveling, they are only getting a little more spell swapping flexibility. But for groups with downtime, this conceptual issue is there.

So basically, they didn't fix two of the major sorcerer problems (that they have equal or less spell power than wizards, when they should have more, and that their class list is too limited), and the one problem they half fixed (that their known spells are too limited--though they didn't increase the number of them) broke something else. That's my issue with the change.

* However, if you have both a wizard and sorcerer in your party, you absolutely should have the sorcerer do this, and have the wizard copy every one of those scrolls into their spellbook so they have the same selection of spells available, because why not? If you did that, then it could be considered to actually balance out and fix that particular problem.
 

Hohige

Explorer
In 5e, a Sorcerer either has the same spell power as a wizard (if they use all of their sorcery points to power their spells) or less spell power if they use it for metamagic. This is something I considered a problem that disfavored the sorcerer.
I completely agreed with everything except that

When the sorcerer use metamagic is by far far more spell power than the wizard. It isn't fair.
 

Vael

Hero
I've played a Sorcerer in a party with a Wizard and I'm not seeing the problem here. We each had strengths and weaknesses and we each contributed to the party and we both successfully completed the adventure.

Access to the optional features in Tasha's would've given me a few more options, but I was already picking the spells that matched my theme and fit what the party needed from me.

I guess I'm just so tired of this Wizard vs Sorcerer as if they're eternally dueling. They're both good classes that are fun to play that offer different options to a party.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter

Cantrip Versatility. Druids, Clerics, and Wizards will be able to swap one Cantrip they learn with another cantrip from their class list whenever they gain a level.



Let's not forget this.
This boost Druids, Clerics, and Wizards if the DM has a long themed adventure where a damage type is resisted or immune for a long period of time an can be predicted. Like assults against vampires or treks into Hell/Abyss.

Sorcerers nerfed again.
 

Vael

Hero
One other point ... while everyone seems so fearful of the deadly powergamer (who, tbh, probably wouldn't be playing a Sorcerer in the first place), I see this as a boon to the other end of the spectrum, the inexperienced player. Sorcerer can be an unforgiving class and I have seen players struggle with them. Letting them swap out spells that aren't doing what they thought, or just giving them room to experiment is a great quality of life improvement.
 


I completely agreed with everything except that

When the sorcerer use metamagic is by far far more spell power than the wizard. It isn't fair.

By spell power I was specifically referring to number of spell slots available to them. They have some cool stuff they can do with metamagic, and in a very limited situation (the spells that can be effectively Twinned, assuming they have that metamagic) they can squeeze out the equivalent of a few more spell slots. Of course, getting those few extra "effective spell slots" requires build dedication (there are a few spells that can be Twinned for great effect, but only a few)--it isn't something every sorcerer can do.
 
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I am not too fond of bards swapping spells thematically. As I already said elsewhere, I'd rather tie retraining to a downtime activity. But maybe the result would be about the same.

On the other hand, I would not mind allowing the bard to swap his spontaneous casting with wizardly spellcasting depending on intelligence and a spell book.

I would not be as generous as for a wizard, only giving one spell per level and only allowing to prepare as many spells as a half caster (half level +ability modifier) which is more limited than what they can have prepared right now. Magical secrets are prepared as well. Extra magical secrets are always prepared.
So he pays extra versatility over several days with less verstility in a single day.
 

And in the games why this rule was suggested is because they take a long time to level (IRL and often in game time), so spending a week to learn 7 brand spanking new spells is not a big time-constraint. Also, it is the simple fact they can learn all new spells! That makes them an ultimately versatile caster.

Now, I am not just picking on Sorcerers et. al on this. Clerics, Druids, and Paladins are even worse offenders when it comes to versatility. They already have access to their entire spell list, but by at least balancing that out with selecting prepared spells--it means they can easily find themselves in a situation where they don't have the proper spell prepared.

Wait, can you explain this sentence to me?

Because, by reading this it sounds to me like you are saying that the Cleric and Druid are balanced from their access to spells by having to select which spells they have for the day.

Which is literally what these rule does, by allowing you to select a single spell to replace a spell you have. Which sounds to me, like you think Spell versatility does something different, which it does not do. It does the thing you said was balanced.
 

dnd4vr

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
I don't know who plays this sorcerer that never metamagics and always gets to cast almost the same number of spells a wizard does -at that point I don't see a point to playing a sorcerer-. Because when you are a sorcerer, you are using metamagic over and over. There are little points left for doing anything else. Most of the time you end up sacrificing slots for even more metamagic (and subclass abilities), and end up casting even less spells per day than a normal spellcaster would. There is a lot of pressure over sorcery points, I don't think I've ever used them to make a spell slot after hitting third level.
My point was simply you stated (due to Arcane Recovery--which does require a short rest) that a Wizard was worth 1.5 Sorcerers. And whether you are using Twin Spell or swapping SP for spell slots, that claim is blatantly false.

And your use of metamagic so much is precisely why the classes were balanced before this trade. A sorcerer has limited spells, but through metamagic and do a lot with them--the wizard knows more spells, but their use is pretty standard.

FWIW, the one sorcerer in our main game rarely uses his SP for metamagic--he usually uses it for more spell slots. Obviously this will vary from player to player.
 

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