D&D 5E (2014) New class options in Tasha

[Crimson Longinus]

Well, Spell Versatility isn't part of the fiction, it's pure mechanic.

What?

 

[Undrave]

What?

It exists for the benefit of the player, not the character. The intent is for a player to not be stuck with a spell choice for too long, it's not something a Sorcerer is expected to do in-fiction. It's a meta concept.

Your character doesn't wake up one morning knowing Absorb Element, they ALWAYS had Absorb Element. It's a retcon to the story.

The Wizard's spell book prep is part of the fiction, it's something the character does in-universe. Same with the Cleric preying for new spells, etc.

I don't think spell versatility is such a problem if you have a mature discussion to your players about what it's supposed to be used for.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

Your character doesn't wake up one morning knowing Absorb Element, they ALWAYS had Absorb Element. It's a retcon to the story.

Personally, I would prefer when the mechanics does retcon the story (Yuck!). But I'm glad those mechanics will be an option for those DMs who want them.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

It exists for the benefit of the player, not the character. The intent is for a player to not be stuck with a spell choice for too long, it's not something a Sorcerer is expected to do in-fiction. It's a meta concept.

Your character doesn't wake up one morning knowing Absorb Element, they ALWAYS had Absorb Element. It's a retcon to the story.

The Wizard's spell book prep is part of the fiction, it's something the character does in-universe. Same with the Cleric preying for new spells, etc.

I don't think spell versatility is such a problem if you have a mature discussion to your players about what it's supposed to be used for.

That's absurd. I could see retraining when levelling interpreted as such and that's already a stretch, but such interpretation for swapping spells every day really doesn't hold up.

 

[Vael]

It's not about being too good, it is the classes having some coherent identity mechanically and thematically. This change makes sorcerers mechanically more similar to wizards, which makes them existing as as separate class even less justified. I actually like the themes of sorcerer, warlock mechanics just fit those themes better.

There is only so much differentiation one can have. A Fireball is still a Fireball, and when they roll initiative, Sorcerers still bring the same number of spells to an encounter they did before.

I'm less concerned about the mythical power gamer that is going to sculpt their spell list over a weeks worth of long rests than the player that quickly picked their spells 2 minutes before the session started and realizes they've "made a huge mistake". I am DMing a party where the Rogue still has to be reminded what their attack bonus is.

 

[TwoSix]

It exists for the benefit of the player, not the character. The intent is for a player to not be stuck with a spell choice for too long, it's not something a Sorcerer is expected to do in-fiction. It's a meta concept.

Your character doesn't wake up one morning knowing Absorb Element, they ALWAYS had Absorb Element. It's a retcon to the story.

The Wizard's spell book prep is part of the fiction, it's something the character does in-universe. Same with the Cleric preying for new spells, etc.

I don't think spell versatility is such a problem if you have a mature discussion to your players about what it's supposed to be used for.

Yea, in general I just frame it as "Oh, I don't have the proper components and materials at hand right now" or "the stars aren't in the right alignment for that effect" if anyone asks, and no one ever actually asks. I never run the game as though the characters have any idea of the concept of spell slots or levels or anything like that.

 

[Kurotowa]

It exists for the benefit of the player, not the character. The intent is for a player to not be stuck with a spell choice for too long, it's not something a Sorcerer is expected to do in-fiction. It's a meta concept.

Your character doesn't wake up one morning knowing Absorb Element, they ALWAYS had Absorb Element. It's a retcon to the story.

I see it the other way around. When your DM gives you permission to alter your character sheet by DM fiat, it's a retcon. When there's a game mechanic for swapping your available spells, it reflects something your character does.

What I usually do is emphasize that "knowing a spell" isn't at all the same thing as knowing how to roast a turkey or install a motherboard. It means having a complex and delicate magical process suspended and ready to activate at a moment's notice. You're not casting Magic Missile from scratch every time, you're feeding power into the previously prepared formation and letting it activate. So when you swap Magic Missile for Absorb Element, you don't "forget" how Magic Missile works. That sort of abstract magical knowledge is covered by Arcana. What you're doing is tearing apart your Magic Missile spell formation and using the parts to build an Absorb Elements one instead.

I find that detailing spells like this makes so many of the D&D mechanics make more sense than treating them as simple learned skills. You can do similar things for martial classes swapping out Maneuvers or Fighting Styles. It's not a retcon, they're not wiping their memory of old skills, they're changing their off-camera daily routine to train different combat techniques. They still know the theory of the other moves, but can only reliably perform the techniques they're staying in constant practice with.

 

[Undrave]

That's absurd. I could see retraining when levelling interpreted as such and that's already a stretch, but such interpretation for swapping spells every day really doesn't hold up.

it holds up just as well as any other abstraction in the game shrug I once went from Trickery Cleric to Bard after one session and, aside from one joke, we just glossed over it and kept playing.

No one is tracking what spells other players know or do not know anyway, so don’t say anything and no one will even notice you changed one of your spell last long rest.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I'm sick of people stuck in AD&D mode freaking out at versatility. Essentially you are saying that any character that can surprise you with a single spell a day, will throw off your DM-FU, leading to cats and dogs, living together ....total anarchy!

Not what I am saying at all but I applaud your impersonation.

5e is a lethal edition.

Nope. Once you get to 5th level, it really isn't.

My then 6th level Fighter failed a DC 13 Con save and started dying. Twice.
The first time on round One.

So, was this a surprise combat? You had no idea you were heading against the creature? Oh well, tough.

Hmm... CON 14 or so (typical of level 6 fighter, but you might have even has a better CON) and proficiency bonus +3 means you had a 35% chance of failing this save. For that to happen twice is about a 1 in 8 chance. But hey, let's not worry about the randomness of the game.

You were dying. Big whoop... Even without help you have a 60% of making all your death saves and stabilizing on your own. Dying =/= Dead.

A 10th level Halfling Bard with a +4 and Advantage to a DC 12 Suggestion spell, rolled the number two twice, and failed. The Suggestion, essentially took her out for the day, due to the spell duration.
In the same session, the remaking three party members fight 4 trolls.

Oh, come on! You're a bard! What was the suggestion-- "Don't dispel this magic I'm casting on you, and don't let anyone else do it?" I mean, you're talking a 2nd level spell so Dispel Magic automatically cancels it.

And 4 trolls against a party of 3 10th level PCs is hardly a difficult fight IME... but without knowing the particulars... who can say?

The monk is knocked unconscious by Troll 1 of 2 trolls surrounding her.
Troll 2 moves into feast. Each attack has Advantage, each hit is an Automatic critical hit, and more importantly, each hit counts as TWO Death Save Failures.
(Two hits and the character is Dead.)
I rolled two sets of the number 1, twice.

AWESOME! I am glad your PC died. I never said it doesn't happen, but the game is geared for the PCs to win.

Oh, and was the monk using Patient Defense? Did she realize perhaps Disengaging would be better?

Again, you can give all the bad roll situations you want, but I've seen that often when PCs do die, it was because the players acted foolishly (just to be clear, I am not assuming you acted foolishly because I don't know the whole scenario, etc.). Oh, and even then, a simple Revivify and you are alive again--let's not forget that. Or, at this level you probably have access (directly or not) to a raise dead and/or reincarnate.

I had the troll pick her up and take her deeper into the caves, (with more trolls), with the party and other trolls chasing behind. We were playing on 9/11, and as a group we have been referring to it as the 9/11/2020 Miracle.

YEAH, the PCs win-- again. Big surprise, huh?

Was this the same 4 trolls from the earlier battle? Again, so much depends on how you play and how prepared your group is, etc. The battles don't sound that difficult to me, more like improper preparation and tactics (and sure, some bad rolls, apparently all in one battle).

In our last session the party almost faced two TPKs, but it was because the players were NOT making good choices. I didn't want to kill them, but like you said, the dice fall as they may. In the first, the Paladin died and was turned into a Shadow (so nothing short of True Resurrection or Wish for him) and in the second the party only survived after the Barbarian/Fighter used inspiration and indomitable twice to keep raging.

The sad thing is: neither battle should have gotten to the point it did. It was flat-out bad choices by the players. One player looked aghast when it seemed like it was over in the second fight. I wasn't going to remind him of indomitable--after all that is his responsibility as the player-- but after a moment of frantic searching he did.

Anyway... DM fiat can make the game tough or deadly, but again --by design-- it isn't. FWIW, 4 10th level PCs against 4 trolls IS a deadly encounter according to the design of the game... guess in your case (due to some bad luck) it finally worked out as designed, huh?

 

[DND_Reborn]

Wizards player are just salty they're not as op as they used to be in older editions

LOL don't even get me started about concentration nerfs...