D&D 5E (2014) New class options in Tasha

[UngeheuerLich]

And extra 2 metamagic choices...its insane.

Considering, that the sorcerer has too few metamagics in the level range 4 to 9, yeah it is insane that they need to chose a feat which instead could have improved either con or cha.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Martial Versatility is perfectly fine.

And Spell Versatility would be OK if only the Ranger got it (though making the Ranger a prepared caster would've been better still).

Actually just giving the ranger the option to cast all of their ritual spells as rituals would help a lot. I think it even is thematically appropriate, the totem barbarian is a precedent for that.
Actually the ranger has a nice balance of arcane and druidic rituals.

 

[Chaosmancer]

If you want to abuse a rule to see how it might be; then you use all the tools at your disposal. You don't limit yourself to level 1. You go for the levels I mentioned

You seem to have missed my point.

Level 1 sorcerer will get this ability. Multi-class into a level 1 sorcerer as a wizard, then you get this rule. And it works for all of your potential spells.

But, it wasn't a major point.

Homebrew has nothing to do with the tests. It was to show that WotC could have found way better correction to the problems of the the sorcerer and some other classes (were they willing).

3

And your opinion that they could have done something you liked better has nothing to do with the points I made. I never said "And WoTC had zero other options than the one they took"

So, you are throwing in a point that has nothing to do with the points I was making. Could they have done something different? Obviously yes. They could potentially do a lot of thing. We are talking about what they did do though.

Characters are all fixed at their levels, magical items, expected spells for their classes and subclasses. Nothing is ever changed from test to test.

Except that this rule is specifically rebuilding the characters spell list.

So, you took characters that have never changed, and a perfect information scenario, and let them rebuild the character's spell list. Taking out spells they know won't be used, because they have used these characters unchanged for years, and replacing them.

Again. It is obvious why this was more powerful. This is the perfect storm of options for this feature.

Any information that can be obtained through contact other plane an even more powerful divinations. Up to the point where they would have the whole map with expected numbers of opponents as any high level characters would try to get information. The information gathering of high level characters is over whelming. You don't go for absolute secrets against these. You go for tactics and the unexpected surprise opponents.

Only 80%?????? A high level character can get way more than that. But traps are placed randomly around the map to keep a level of surprise and reinforcement are never taken into account as they might be or not be there.

On the other hand, opponents are expected to the same to the players as they could get a warning (especially the Giths) and this could lead to interesting traps that divinations would not reveal.

Yeah, this is not my experience. In fact, I've never seen any player ever use Contact Other Plane.

My players never know the exact number of opponents they will face. They may know an approximate, if it is an enemy that they were tracking, but more often than not they go in knowing no more than their quest.

Your experience is not universal. Not even close.

Some of the spell that were swap and I remember the Gith adventure as it was the last one. I'll ask the sorcerer player if he still have his notes. But those I remember:
Charm person for Silent Image
Dark Vision for Alter self
Hold Person for See invisibility
Fly for Stinking cloud
Banishment for Dominate beast and then Wall of fire at rest.
Teleport circle for Animate object
Reverse Gravity for Delayed Blast Fire Ball
Time Stop for Meteor Swarm.

That is a lot of spells.

That green, bolded part is the biggest indication of what I'm talking about.

Hold Person is an amazing spell... but it only works on humanoids. And See Invisibility is only needed if someone encounters an invisible enemy.

So, your player knew that there were not any humanoid enemies they would want to use Hold Person on, but they knew that there was an invisible enemy they would need to see.

I also see a lot of spells they had (which were pre-selected) which were pretty rough to have by this point. Darkvision is likely no longer needed, Charm Person is generally a bad spell, changing for Silent Image, that is very powerful

So... yes. They made some swaps that were clearly because they knew exactly what was coming, and others because the basic spells provided were not good spells in general.

 

[Azzy]

Yes, they do. Second only to the Wizard, which has that limitation the sorcerers now do not have.

Up thread, Vael listed some of the spells that wizards have that sorcerers don't. Sorcerers have far less utility spells on their list as well, and that doesn't consider that many of the sorcerers spells are redundant—doing much the same thing in slightly different ways.

This is you fiating arguments you don't want to address. You're making a blanket claim that it's unrealstic, with zero support for the claim.

Well, I am refuting a claim that has zero factual support for it. So, until said claim is somehow substantiated, there is no reason to accept said claim as valid—especially when said claim is reliant on an extreme theoretical example.

It looks like you're trying to substitute emotion for a thoughtful argument.

Quite the contrary, I'm refuting arguments that are based on emotion rather than being thoughtful, rational, or convincing. Physician, heal thyself.

Why is it unrealistic for a sorcerer player to do what wizard players have done since the 1970s in almost every edition of the game? Because...reasons?

It is when the sorcerer player literally cannot do what's being claimed without spending weeks (instead of one long rest) even with fewer spells than the wizard.

Where has anyone every made a claim which is comparable to "dying from drinking water"

"This rule is simply BS. It will simply make wizards obselete. "

"It just makes the wizards look like total chumps. They spend their time collecting a catalogue of spells, undertaking dangerous quests to raid the ruins of ancient libraries, meticulously researching old shattered spell tablets to reconstruct obscure magic formulas... while every other caster can just access any spell by taking a nap. "

"Because apparently sorcerers were born with all spells changeable on a night's rest, all of a sudden? "

"So how would you feel about giving fighters the sneak attack? Would you also think that it would be weird that if people though that it would make rogues feel less special and muddy the differentiation between these two classes? Because this is kinda like that. "

"Wizards lost a lot. They lost their niche.
They lost because everyone gained something save the wizards.

1) I am not a player. I am a DM through and through.
2) This rule is totally unbalanced. Because some DM were not sympathetic enough to allow a player to change a spell once in a while because he made a mistake, we are now stuck with a rule that destroy the very reason why wizards were fun to play. Versatility. "

"HEY! I found a really balanced buff to the wizards to cope with the new features!!!!!!!!

Lets' double their spell slots and allow them their intel bonus on all damage dice. That should do the trick. /sarcasm off... (well kind of.)"

"It means after a nap sorcerer can has access to any spell they could theoretically have. This makes them significantly better magic-based problem solver than the wizard, whose thing this used to be. To me this seems like a colossal shift. Going from having access to handful of spells to, what, over a hundred? I have super hard time understanding how people can't see what a massive change that is."

"The wizard has been nerfed to the ground without even getting an official nerf. He still can do his versatility and ritual casting, but the sorcerer does it way better now."

"I know many of you feel this isn't a big deal. Sure, its "optional" and such, but it pisses all over the Wizard for no reason other than people who agreed to play a class with a restriction (you only have a limited number of spells you know, and can still swap them out when you level... but you get other cool features to compensate) and whined about it afterwards."

"And a lack of long term vision. In a few years, some of them will go like: "Hey, how come we don't see people playing wizards anymore?"
Players' answer: "We don't want to gimp ourselves man. Wizards are a joke.""

So, yeah, when the claim that a sorcerer being able to change out one of their potentially 15 spells known (from a spell list that has less utility, thus versatility, spells) on a long rest is obsolescing a wizard that still has more spells prepared, more utility spells available (which, given the amount of spells wizards add to their spellbook—with no consideration of spells found, purchased, researched—allows for the ability to choose both combat and non-combat spells without gimping one or the other), Arcane Recovery, ritual spells (that don't even need to be prepared), then, yes, it's a similar level of silly hyperbole.

I especiially love the complaint that sorcerers are stepping on wizards' toes thematically with this increased variability when wizards stepped on sorcerers' toes when they became semi-spontaneous casters along with other prepared casters in this edition when that was pretty much the 3e sorcerer's raison d'être. It's almost like 3e's "mechanical themes" of the spellcasters were purposefully minimized in 5e (to a lesser extant than in 4e, but I digress) and that 5e puts more emphasis on the classes' "fluff" themes instead to make the classes distinct (though there are still enough mechanical differences even with this).

So, no, I take issue with the idea that this change now make the wizards the sick man of D&D.

? Nowhere, but maybe if you make bolder and ruder allegations people won't notice it's not a comparable analogy to our arguments?

Not comparable because the issue of human death is not a part of the sorcerer complaints? Considering that was never the point of the comparison, anyway, but rather the depth of exaggeration, I find your protestations misplaced.

It is. As a wizard fan, I am looking at a shadow or divine soul sorcerer build right now because of this change.

You should have before this change—they are nicely thematic subclasses that have fun toys. They still suffer from the sorcerer's inherent drawbacks and, at least for the shadow sorcerer, lack an array of thematic-appropriate spells. If you think you're going to run roughshod on a campaign or make wizard players cry because of these changes, then go, be my guess, and try and see how that plays out.

Likewise, I still plan to play abjurers, evokers, bladesingers, and maybe illusionists whenever I get the chance.

I don't know why you think optimizers will suddenly not optimize with a new rule that is so ripe for abuse, but you look naive and foolish for dismissing it as some corner case when it isn't.

"Optimizers" swapping out a known spell on a long rest—even to the extreme of spending weeks to change out their entire spell list (which is neither practical nor actually useful)—isn't actually going to affect game balance because they will still have only 15 (at 20th level) spells to choose from at any given time, still have limited Sorcery Points, and so on.

Yes. Would you prefer elitist? Narrow minded? Inexperienced? Lacking in imagination? Behaving like a jerk to your peers? You tell me, how would you have taken to that kind of comment directed at you when you were being sincere?

Don't make claims of insincerity when you purposely truncate my sentence to alter its meaning. That's rather hypocritical.

 

[Mistwell]

And extra 2 metamagic choices...its insane.

Meh, seems fine to me for the sorc. They need boost, and that seems a good boost for them. Besides, there are not enough feats appropriate for a sorc.

 

[Mistwell]

Don't make claims of insincerity when you purposely truncate my sentence to alter its meaning. That's rather hypocritical.

That's not true. I truncated it because I was replying to that part, it was in context, and the remainder didn't alter the context of what I was replying to. When you make that kind of accusation, we're done.

 

[DND_Reborn]

"I know many of you feel this isn't a big deal. Sure, its "optional" and such, but it pisses all over the Wizard for no reason other than people who agreed to play a class with a restriction (you only have a limited number of spells you know, and can still swap them out when you level... but you get other cool features to compensate) and whined about it afterwards."

This is MY quote. Tell me how you equate what I wrote to:

"Where has anyone every made a claim which is comparable to "dying from drinking water"?

Because everything I said that you quoted is factual. If you play a Sorcerer you are accepting a harsh restriction of very limited known spells, which you agree to only being able to swap out when you level, in exchange for the power and versatility of metamagic. The restriction is in exchange for all the features Bards, Rangers (I agree with @Gladius Legis they should also have been prepared casters though), and Warlocks as well.

This rule was added because people who take longer to level than 5E was designed around and later regret a chosen spell for their known-caster PC whined about their decisions. Tough. It was part of the class from the beginning.

Allowing any known-spell caster unlimited access to their entire spell list does steal--even if only a little bit, I think potentially a lot myself--from the versatility Wizards are played for. Those classes get the spotlight for other reasons--reasons the Wizard can't do normally.

Sure, players might not abuse this rule, ask for extended downtime to get in long rests to swap out several spells, etc. but the feature opens the door for abuse and to take the spotlight off of the Wizard when otherwise it wouldn't.

Will it be a big problem? Who knows? But obviously from the people expressing their views here there are enough people who won't adopt the rule, or will house-rule it to make it harder, etc. So, saying this is not an issue people might face is insulting--we see the possibility there, even if you and others don't.

 

[Azzy]

That's not true. I truncated it because I was replying to that part, it was in context, and the remainder didn't alter the context of what I was replying to. When you make that kind of accusation, we're done.

Sure, Jan.

 

[Undrave]

Reducing the Wizard to being 'versatile' and nothing more, and that if the Sorcerer is 10% more versatile it make the Wizard redundant, feels a bit like how 'Leads people' isn't enough of a niche for the Warlord to be a class... just sayin'...

UA is not official yet. Incredible as it may seem, the most benefited from this feat is the sorcerer himself. I hope it is not published, because that is Broken.
A sorcerer with Spell Versatility and metamagic adept feat is really versatile and broken.

I mention it because I expect the feats to be in Tasha's.

And the Sorcerer isn't gonna be 'really versatile', it'll just be 'more versatile than it was'.

 

[Mistwell]

Reducing the Wizard to being 'versatile' and nothing more, and that if the Sorcerer is 10% more versatile it make the Wizard redundant, feels a bit like how 'Leads people' isn't enough of a niche for the Warlord to be a class... just sayin'...



I mention it because I expect the feats to be in Tasha's.

And the Sorcerer isn't gonna be 'really versatile', it'll just be 'more versatile than it was'.

In my experience the majority of wizard spell-switches after a rest were just one spell. Usually because of a particular plan the party comes up with regarding some upcoming challenge that they've gained knowledge about. It would be very very rare to see a bunch of spells switched. But maybe my experience differs from yours. Do you usually see wizards swapping a whole bunch of spells overnight very often?