New Feat Chain: Parry

[Clint]

Hi, all.

I'm talking the following feat chain over with the players in my campaign. What do you y'all think? I'm aware that expertise, dodge, and mobility are all workable, too, but I wanted something more... martial. Like Gladiator in the Arena parrying.

Any comments appreciated.

Parry [Fighter] [General]
You are adept at deflecting melee blows with your own melee weapon.
Requirements: BAB +2, Dex 13
Benefit: As part of a full-round melee action, sacrifice one melee attack (with a weapon that you are proficient in) on your action to have a melee parry attempt readied. When an enemy attacks you in melee, before the result of the attack is decided, declare a parry attempt. You and your opponent make opposed Attack rolls (of the attack bonus of the attack you sacrificed), your character has a +1 parry bonus to this roll. If your roll matches or exceeds your opponent's, the attack is deflected for no damage. If your opponent's roll is higher than yours, determine the result of the attack normally. This parry attempt can be 'held' until a particular attack, but the benefit is lost if not used by your next action.

Improved Parry [Fighter] [General]
Your speed allows you to block multiple blows.
Requirements: BAB +7, Dex 15, Parry
Benefit: As Parry, but gain the ability to sacrifice any number of melee attacks to an equal number of incoming attacks. For each parry attempt, determine which sacrificed attack you are allocating to block. For example, if your character with attacks at +12/+7/+2 elects to use the +7/+2 attacks to parry, first make your +12 attack. Then, when the first melee attack comes that you choose to parry, announce that you are parrying with either your +7 or +2 attack. That parry is now spent, and the other remains for a future parry. All parry attempts gain a +2 parry bonus.

Supreme Parry [Fighter] [General]
You become a whirlwind of defense.
Requirements: BAB +12, Dex 17, Improved Parry
Benefit: As a full round action, sacrifice all melee attacks for a parry attempt at every melee attack that your character suffers, at your primary attack bonus, using the mechanics described for Parry. All parry attempts gain a +3 parry bonus.

 

[fba827]

I like the idea and I understand your intention but something about the first feat in your chain seemed a little overly complicated though. And, I wanted to understand that fully before reading the other two (so I haven't even read those other two yet).

Let me think about it for a bit and see if I can think of a suggestion or so or maybe I just need to clear my head first and reread it ;-)

 

[Tony Vargas]

I've taken a trip in that direction myself. Pretty similar results, actually:

====================================
Parrying:

Parry [Attack-equivalent action, AoO: No]
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp To use the Parry action, the character simply picks an opponent and chooses to Parry instead of making any attack to which he might otherwise be entitled to make against that opponent. The Parrying character makes a normal attack roll - if the result is higher than his AC, that opponent's next attack must go against the higher AC. You can roll several parries against the same opponent (if you are entitled to multiple attacks) if you are afraid he'll make multiple attacks before your next action, or you can use some attacks offensively and others to Parry. The Parry only affects an attack made before your initiative, next round.
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Parrying requires that you have a weapon in hand (or, if unarmed, are facing an unarmed opponent, or have Improved Unarmed Strike) or a shield. If you use a Shield to parry, add it's AC bonus to your Parry check, instead of to your normal AC.
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Parrying while Fighting Defensively, using Total Defense, Dodging, or using Expertise: If you use any of the above options on a round that you Parry, you can add the AC bonus to either your AC or your Parry rolls that round. You may not use the Fighting Defensively or Expertise modifiers unless you make at least one offensive attack roll that round.


Related Feats:

Improved Parry:
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp You are skilled at fencing, swordplay and shield use and can keep opponents from hitting you - as often.
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Prerequisites: INT 13+, BAB 1+
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Benefits: When you perform a Parry, the improved AC counts for all attacks the designated opponent makes for the balance of the round.
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Normally: A successful Parry only replaces AC against the next attack that opponent makes.
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Special: Improved Parry can replace Expertise as a prerequisite for other Feats.

Improved Shield Parry
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp You are good at blocking attacks with a shield, while keeping your shield close enough to protect you from other attacks.
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Prerequisites: Shield Proficiency
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Benefits: When you Parry with a shield, you do not lose the shield's bonus to your normal AC.
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Normally: Your shield's bonus does not add to your normal AC on a round that you use it to Parry.

Reflexive Parry
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp With luck and skill you can knock aside a blow that would otherwise have struck home.
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Prerequisites: DEX 15+, BAB 4+, plus either Improved Parry or Combat Reflexes
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Benefits: You can make a Parry attempt /after/ an attack has hit you. If the result is higher than the AC hit by the attack, it misses after all. Subsequent attacks that round are not affected, even if you have Improved Parry or Multiple Circle Parry. The Reflexive Parry counts as your attack of opportunity for the round.
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Special: If you have Combat Reflexes, the Reflexive Parry counts as one of your AoOs for the round - so you cannot make an AoO (including Riposte or another Reflexive Parry) against the same opponent that round.

Multiple Circle Parry
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbspYou are skilled in making spectacular sweeping parries with which you contemptuously knock aside the blades of lesser foes.
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Prerequisite: Improved Parry, Dodge, Mobility, BAB 6+
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Benefits: When you attempt a Parry, the result of the check can substitute for your AC vs all opponents who attack you in melee that round.
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Normally: Each Parry check applies to only one opponent.

Riposte:
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp You can follow up on the slightest opening left by an opponent whose attacks you parry.
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Prerequisites: Expertise or Improved Parry
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Benefits: When an opponent misses your Parry AC, or misses you because of your AC bonus from Expertise or Fighting Defensively, you may make an attack of opportunity. Attackers who are Fighting Defensively or using Expertise, themselves, do not provoke Ripostes.
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Special: A Riposte counts as your Attack of Opportunity for the round in which it is used. Remember that you cannot make two AoO's on the same target, on the same round, even if you have Combat Reflexes.

 

[peterka1]

Expertise is more convenient. I dislike Rollplaying.
Raise efficiency of expertise...

 

[SableWyvern]

Expertise is more convenient. I dislike Rollplaying.
Raise efficiency of expertise...

?

With Clint's method, unless using supreme parry, the number of die rolls doesn't increase; in fact, in some circumstances they may decrease. Besides which, pretty much everything that occurs in combat, by the book, comes down to die rolls already.

Personally, I think both methods are pretty good - I probably prefer Clint's, although I think the best option would be to add some of TV's feats into Clint's chain.

 

[Clint]

Thanks TV!

I like your method as well. In my game, I wanted to avoid making Parry a standard action available to all characters. I envisioned these feats as being special combat actions, because are likely to slow combat down considerably if everyone could do it. Plus, hopefully these will make the core of a martial Gladiator prestige class that makes sense to me.

I also like the way that you stated the mechanics, TV. You're right, in effect, the attack roll becomes a temporary AC, if the attack roll is greater than the AC. Do you all agree?

I also really like the concept of parrying with a shield, as well. (duh! ) What do you think, make it similar to a 'normal' parry, but give a +4 bonus to the attempt? With the Parry feat and two-weapon fighting, you could really have some good sword-on-shield action going on.

SableWyvern, thanks for the comments. I'm going to take a shot at adapting TV's Riposte to fit with the rest of my stuff.

Riposte [Fighter] [General]
You can follow up on the slightest opening left by an opponent whose attacks you parry.
Prerequisites: Improved Parry, Combat Reflexes
Benefits: After a successful parry on an opponent's swing, you may make an attack against that opponent, at the Parry's BAB. For example, if a fighter has elected to make a parry with a +7 attack, and is successful in the resulting parry attempt, he may make make a Riposte attack at +7 against his opponent. Note that the parry bonus used in the Parry check does not carry over to the Riposte.
Special: A Riposte counts as your Attack of Opportunity for the round in which it is used. Remember that you cannot make two AoO's on the same target in the same round, even with Combat Reflexes. If you have already made an Attack of Opportunity against this opponent before this Parry, you cannot attempt a Riposte.
Special: A character cannot Riposte with a Shield unless they have Improved Shield Bash.
Special: Riposte and Supreme Parry do not work together.

Should Riposte and Supreme Parry work together? It wasn't my intention to create a potential defensive Whirlwind Attack.

And one more feat to finish off the two-weapon duelers... or even a clever Weapon and Shield user. I hate the name, it implies blocking with two weapons. Any suggestions?

Dual-weapon Riposte [Fighter] [General]
You are adept at parrying weapons in your off-hand.
Prerequisites: Riposte, Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefit: As Riposte, but when using two weapons and successfully executing a Parry, either weapon may be used for the Riposte. This feat may be used with a shield, but no shield AC is granted that round while using it to attack (or Parry).
For example: A character wielding the classic long sword/dagger combination successfully uses the +3 BAB dagger attack to Parry; the Riposte can come either from the dagger or the long sword.
Normal: A Riposte must come from the same weapon that executed the Parry.

Finally, I'm thinking of adding the requirement that a weapon can't Parry a weapon of more than one size greater than itself. So that Small short sword won't parry a Large Glaive, and a Medium long sword won't parry a Huge Greatclub (from an Ogre, say). A Large Shield counts as a large weapon for purposes of this mechanic, so it could parry a huge Greatclub.

Whew!

 

[SnowDog]

As a fighter in Clint's campaign, I'm now wondering whether I'm going to be fighting a gladiator or becoming one

I just spoke with Clint about the feat chain, and I had some questions/concerns/general observations. Figured I'd post them here for others to comment on, and let him answer here.

While I love the flavor of the parry, my very first concern is in terms of playtesting and number crunching. Without the riposte I wasn't convinced it was meaningful to take this feat chain (balance-wise, not flavor-wise) as opposed to expertise/any improved expertise feats available in other books. With some kind of riposte in there, I think we may have something that rewards the player for taking so many feats.

Ok - specific issues:

Parrying with a shield: I think it's key that you don't get your shield bonus to your AC while doing this. Should you get more than your ordinary shield bonus to your parry check? Not sure.

I like the Riposte feat, especially with regards to it burning an AoO. Do we need a separate feat for 2-weapon riposte, or shall we just say you get that benefit automatically? Not sure.

How would, say, Fighting Defensively or Expertise stack here? It obviously lowers the attack, but how does that translate into the parry bonus? Does the bonus to AC from fighting defensively or expertise come back into the parry check?

Should wearers of heavy armor and/or encumbered people be able to use this chain if they have the right DEX? Should it use INT instead? DEX and INT? My concern is that you require a DEX of 17 for the highest feat in the list, but if I'm wearing full plate and carrying a warhorse on my back I can still parry and riposte like a madman. One suggestion: if your movement is decreased due to encumberance or armor you cannot use the higher level parry feats (other option: move from DEX 17 to DEX Bonus of +X ... so if armor reduces max dex it impacts your ability to use feat. I'd say go with that except I don't know of any other feat that is worded like that).

Can you parry if you've lost your DEX bonus to AC (ala Dodge, which says you cannot dodge in that case)?

Balance issue: this provides a great way to get away from touch attacks. I don't think this is broken, though, as I think you already had a way to do this via, say, expertise (and any optional improvements to expertise introduced in other feat books).

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

... in effect, the attack roll becomes a temporary AC, if the attack roll is greater than the AC. Do you all agree?

Sorry for sticking my nose into this so late, but I felt compelled to throw this out here.

I actually like the whole system, but it removes some of the element of risk as it stands. It might be worth considering making the attack roll become the temporary AC even if it's less than the normal AC. After all, a botched parry has a chance of actually helping an opponent hit you since you leave openings they can use to their advantage. If not that, then you at least shouldn't be able to riposte if you roll a parry attempt lower than your normal AC. A roll that low should imply that your parry attempt didn't go very well.

 

[Clint]

Hi Canis.

I see what you're saying, but I wouldn't want a player (or character) to spend a feat and maybe end up getting hurt by using it. I mean, why would a failed parry negate things like armor or magical protection?

Maybe if you were using Tony Vargas' system where anyone can attempt it, that would make sense. But for the cost of a feat, I wouldn't want a chance of a lower AC.

Snowdog and I are running numbers on how my feat chain plays, to see how much it helps or hurts. We'll post the results here.

 

[Stargher]

Parrying the Easy Way

As the rules stand, every character can use all their attacks to Disarm their opponents. Granted, they receive an attack of opportunity and may end up unarmed, but parrying should be much easier. This is how I would allow it:

Parrying (No Feats)
The PC can elect to use the parry action as a ready action. Then he'll just have to beat the opponents attack roll with his parry roll, to deflect the attack. He may use Expertise or fighting defensively, but these would also lower his chance to parry the attack. Only one attack may be parried.

Parry Feat Dex 13+ (15+) (17+) (19+) (21+)
The PC gains a Free Action Parry every time he takes this feat. The Dexterity requirement increases with every additional feat taken. This Free Action can be used any time during the combat round. The PC must beat his opponents attack roll. You must have either an off-hand weapon, a shield or Improved Unarmed Strike to be able to use this parry. Ranged Weapons cannot be parried...