NEW Immortals Handbook - Ascension thread

[paradox42]

The art previews on the website are great, Krusty- if a bit focused on alignment conflicts. Eagerly awaiting the next update!

 

[Pssthpok]

Hiya mate!

Hey hey, UK! Sorry for the delayed response; I was in the Bahamas for four days.

Think of it in terms of a percentage thing.

Something that gives a 30% increase to a fluid score needs to be higher than something which adds 30% to a static score.

Percentages can't be used in this discussion, I think, since they can't be isolated. Cha 40 + Heavenly Mind is +x% to the Nth-level character, but if that 40 or the N changes, the x changes, rendering moot the observation thereof and making such a case inadmissible in a court of law.

That being said, you've just got to look at what gives what to what: Attack should be balanced against AC, so that if Deity A has the Attack ability and Deity B has the AC ability, they cancel each other out. I don't see such a cancel-out as a problem, but actually asan element that already exists in your setup. Infinite Dexterity counters Infinite Strength...

Not quite, because higher Attack Bonus is preferable at epic levels. As levels increase you will hit proportionately more often, but deal proportionately less damage.

Debatable. It depends on the construction of the opponent. Undead never really have tremendous HP, so that alone lends inconsistency to your point.

Therefore if you subscribe to the (futile in any case) idea that AC and Attack Bonus should increase in tandem, then you will bring about a situation where your fights take longer, and longer and longer. Long fights sound epic, but in practice they just grind the game down to a standstill.

Yeah maybe you're right when discussing a one-on-one scenario, but IMXP epic games consist of a group of players, many of whom would have cohorts and/or other high-level PCs.

The problem with big DC boosting abilities is that everyone takes them and then they win. End of. They only have to bump one ability score up whereas you need to bump three.

Then you FORCE people into a DC/Saving Throw war just to try and stay competitive, which they won't be because you can't boost all your ability scores to keep pace with the Super-sorcerer who only concentrates on his Charisma.

I agree, but this only furthers the idea that X should counter Y. Not every enemy of Deity X is going to have Ability Y, so it's not like making the abilities ostensibly balanced against each other literally cancels out their effect. It's good to have a failsafe on the ability, so no matter how it affects the deity in question there's a way to counteract it. Making their opposed modifier counter evenly against the given modifier is a perfect way to do this. Attacks +x? AC +x, but only if the DM designs the enemies to utilize this.

Well then you are going to have to houserule me on these abilities, because your reasoning is flawed.

We'll agree to disagree on who's reasoning is flawed then, mate. You're promoting a dissonance that only exacerbates the inherent flaws in the system at epic level play. Giving someone more attack bonus for the same cost as giving someone a paltry increase to their AC only makes the attackers more advantaged then the defenders. The same goes for Saves and DCs. When, in reality, what ought to be established is instead a system wherein designers are given the option to boost as many of these four elements as they desire, but their enemies have an equal opportunity to counteract these boosts. Your MBSS abilities as written do not enable this, but only throw into sharp relief that whoever attacks first wins, and whoever hasn't twinked their AC via other means loses. This line of thinking promotes the 'layer-cake' items, like rings of natural armor and deflection and profane and etc to AC - things that you've basically said are silly and have no place in a sensible gaming environment... yet here you are giving us no other choice, because X ≠ Y, everyone normally inclined to take Y (for flavor or appropriateness) will find themselves out in the cold because X utterly trumps them, come hell or high water.
But have it your way. My reasoning is flawed, as you say.
I on the other hand will be running a more balanced epic game.

It allows you to manipulate circumstances in your favour, like maneouvering combat so that your opponent is hampered by geography, etc.

Oh... well, I see. I think that's more of a roleplaying thing - someone responding to what's been drawn on a battle mat, for instance - than something that can be resolved into manipulable numerics.

Intellectual Spirit means that you know how to apply your intelligence better in certain areas.

Not if it only adds your rank.

Thats a disparity which should be courted. Otherwise fights will take forever.

Again, in a one-on-one that should rarely happen at that level of play. I think the disparity needs to be bridged or it will take a whole hell of a lot of nerfing and fudging to make the BBEG B, B, or E.

Its a possibility, some of these are betwixt and between. Other times combinations of abilities can mess your balance up.

Well, consider pushing it up a tier for a while; at least before you get wrist-deep in G&M. UPA is one badass feat.

If you do that, the Attack and Save boosts become next to worthless, especially at lower divine ranks.

Shudder to think... those are two areas that need the least help! God forbid they get... the least help!

I don't really see the big problem with True Strike.

Outside of it being punked by a deity with a key ability score of 50+ with [Adjective] Mind, no ... no problem at all.

Sorry. I know I said 'last word', but half-a-week on a stroke-hot island with no internet can work wonders on one's dedication to a point.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

A question/clarification on Third Eye:

To be clear: only a spell/SLA that generates a ray can be used in conjunction with this ability, correct?

Correct.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey paradox matey!

The art previews on the website are great, Krusty

Well I am glad someone likes them, I was beginning to think everyone hated them, even though in my opinion its some of the best work I have done (the Primus illustration aside - I am not happy with that one).

- if a bit focused on alignment conflicts.

Well we have to remember that I am not a real artist (I'm just pretending I can draw), nor do I have people posing for me. So I can just about cobble together monsters fighting, but ask me to do something like a bunch of people worshipping another and its like running into a brick wall.

Although you'll be happy to know that was the end of the alignment conflicts tonight...unless I redo the Primus illustration?

Eagerly awaiting the next update!

Tonights update featured Fangor vs. Bwimb.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Pssthpok mate!

Hey hey, UK! Sorry for the delayed response; I was in the Bahamas for four days.

*SNIP*

You jammy git!

Its 1am here now, I'll get to the full reply (and any other replies) in the morning.

 

[Pssthpok]

Hey hey, UK!

Don't rush the reply if it hinders you getting that update done. I'm hoping that the text is finished? Doubt it. At any rate, the art looks really swell; keep up the good work!

 

[dante58701]

Yes, love the art, especially the archer.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

apologies for being away these past 48 hours, I should relate that I have started a part-time job (part-time bordering on the side of full time lets say) and its unclear at this stage exactly how that will affect progress on Ascension. I'll know better after a week or two.

I should still be able to put in 30-35 hours per week on the books. So if I can just maximise my time a bit better you shouldn't notice any loss in my usual snail's pace.

I was hoping not to need the part time work (after all I should be getting paid for the book in a few months) but I had got to the stage where it was no longer feasible.

I know theres a bit of a backlog in the forums at the moment (and I see the squabbling has started again and a few people need a smack on the ear), I'll be back in a few hours to sort that out.

 

[Pssthpok]

How about that update, then?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey hey, UK! Sorry for the delayed response; I was in the Bahamas for four days.

Hope you had a great time!

Percentages can't be used in this discussion, I think, since they can't be isolated. Cha 40 + Heavenly Mind is +x% to the Nth-level character, but if that 40 or the N changes, the x changes, rendering moot the observation thereof and making such a case inadmissible in a court of law.

That being said, you've just got to look at what gives what to what: Attack should be balanced against AC, so that if Deity A has the Attack ability and Deity B has the AC ability, they cancel each other out. I don't see such a cancel-out as a problem, but actually asan element that already exists in your setup. Infinite Dexterity counters Infinite Strength...

I honestly don't think its as simple as Attack balancing Armor Class.

First and foremost because the relationship between Attack and AC changes as you advance.

Hitting becomes more and more easier while damage becomes less and less pertinent.

Debatable. It depends on the construction of the opponent. Undead never really have tremendous HP, so that alone lends inconsistency to your point.

As a generalism I don't think it is debateable.

Yeah maybe you're right when discussing a one-on-one scenario, but IMXP epic games consist of a group of players, many of whom would have cohorts and/or other high-level PCs.

Well again I am referring to a combat situation, not one where some sort of 'trick' has gained one side the upper hand.

I agree, but this only furthers the idea that X should counter Y. Not every enemy of Deity X is going to have Ability Y, so it's not like making the abilities ostensibly balanced against each other literally cancels out their effect. It's good to have a failsafe on the ability, so no matter how it affects the deity in question there's a way to counteract it. Making their opposed modifier counter evenly against the given modifier is a perfect way to do this. Attacks +x? AC +x, but only if the DM designs the enemies to utilize this.

Counterbalance can work in many wasy though. I have already explained the Attack vs. AC is counter-balanced by Damage vs. HP.

We'll agree to disagree on who's reasoning is flawed then, mate.

You're promoting a dissonance that only exacerbates the inherent flaws in the system at epic level play. Giving someone more attack bonus for the same cost as giving someone a paltry increase to their AC only makes the attackers more advantaged then the defenders. The same goes for Saves and DCs. When, in reality, what ought to be established is instead a system wherein designers are given the option to boost as many of these four elements as they desire, but their enemies have an equal opportunity to counteract these boosts. Your MBSS abilities as written do not enable this, but only throw into sharp relief that whoever attacks first wins, and whoever hasn't twinked their AC via other means loses. This line of thinking promotes the 'layer-cake' items, like rings of natural armor and deflection and profane and etc to AC - things that you've basically said are silly and have no place in a sensible gaming environment... yet here you are giving us no other choice, because X ≠ Y, everyone normally inclined to take Y (for flavor or appropriateness) will find themselves out in the cold because X utterly trumps them, come hell or high water.

Its only a dissonance if you assume hitting 95% of the opponents on a '2'+ for your best fighter type is a flaw, rather than a feature of epic play.

You simply cannot keep everything within the perfunctory 20 point margin of the d20 range. It'll never happen - too many variables.

But have it your way. My reasoning is flawed, as you say.
I on the other hand will be running a more balanced epic game.

Good luck with that.

Oh... well, I see. I think that's more of a roleplaying thing - someone responding to what's been drawn on a battle mat, for instance - than something that can be resolved into manipulable numerics.

Yes its a sloppy mechanic...but its a mechanic thats already in the game! Numerous examples in prestige classes, spells and abilities.

Not if it only adds your rank.

It adds your intelligence up to the power of your divine rank. Remember your divinity is technically allowing you to bend the rules in such cases.

Again, in a one-on-one that should rarely happen at that level of play. I think the disparity needs to be bridged or it will take a whole hell of a lot of nerfing and fudging to make the BBEG B, B, or E.

Can you give me an example?

Well, consider pushing it up a tier for a while; at least before you get wrist-deep in G&M. UPA is one badass feat.

Okay.

Shudder to think... those are two areas that need the least help! God forbid they get... the least help!

But they still need to be value for money.

Outside of it being punked by a deity with a key ability score of 50+ with [Adjective] Mind, no ... no problem at all.

Yes, but getting to an ability score of 50+ takes abilities in itself.

Sorry. I know I said 'last word', but half-a-week on a stroke-hot island with no internet can work wonders on one's dedication to a point.

No harm done.