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D&D General New Interview with Rob Heinsoo About 4E

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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Not, really no. The wizard is better than every other class because it has more options, more powerful options, and can easily overshadow other classes in their core competencies.
To you, and some other people, "more options" is "better." That's not the case for other people, or at least, not better enough to make the wizard palatable compared to its drawbacks. "Simplicity is fun" players, for instance, find the wizard laborious to play, which is why several members of my own group (which has been playing for almost fifteen years now) have never played one.

Hence what I wrote before about the problem of assuming that your terms, ideas, and preferences are understood by others, even when you use the same nomenclature.
 

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DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Not, really no. The wizard is better than every other class because it has more options, more powerful options, and can easily overshadow other classes in their core competencies. There’s a whole thread dedicated to this tangent.
You gotta find some less creative players to play with. Make the morons play the Wizards at your table so that they don't know what to do with all the tools they have. ;)
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
I think I will keep doing math because I passed elementary school. Also that's another strawman because all those classes and rules at once is way more complexity than adding 2 levels of fighter and use a dragon magazine mini-feat chain of two to add a parry mechanic. I encourage you to do better than this, especially of you take the effort to post such image that compares that "real math" to sums and subtractions and the occasional, please don't be intimidated, multiplication.

Which also is a suggestion to reread what I wrote about the "immune to level x spells". I am sorry you never noticed spell levels exist in unverse, but ignoring this very important element doesn't add any validity to the point you are trying to make, especially because it was just triggered by me pronouncing the forbidden D word.

And also: "he said she said" is no proof. I want evidence for this now pretty disturbing pro-wizard conspiracy, thank you. Because to me sounds, among other things, a pretty nice excuse to avoid Hanlon's Razor.
So you’re saying the reason the wizard is overpowered is not intentional design, but rather because the designers are stupid? That’s certainly a take.
 



I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
But when I'm playing D&D I'm playing a character with a class, a level, an Armour Class, a set number of basically consequence-free hit points, and a multi-page character sheet (which if I'm playing a caster has a large number of arcane rules). Everything is reminding me of this from the D&D mechanics in any edition.

And when you're watching a play, you can see the makeup, and the cardboard doesn't resemble the castle walls, and cast members move through the audience, and there's artificial lighting.

And when you're reading a book, you are holding a physical object, and reading a language you memorized, and puzzling out pronunciations, using a bookmark, getting papercuts.

These are just trappings of the medium. If you want to portray a person in armor on a stage, you put them in costume. If you want to portray a person in armor in a book, you write a description of the armor. If you want to portray a person in armor in a game of D&D, then you choose it as equipment and apply its effects to your Armor Class and whatever else it affects (encumbrance, speed, etc.).

If you are a person for whom the game is mostly medium, then you are someone that approaches with the usual audience assumption of "I am going to not worry about the trappings of the medium." Yes, the actor just appeared from offstage, but because I'm a willing participant in this little bit of make-believe, I am going to pretend that the character just arrived from a battlefield, because that's what the narrative is asking me to go along with.

You can tell a story without that story requiring ANYTHING but the visual in your head. You engage with nothing else except the spoken (or written) words, or the visuals and sounds presented to you.

You cannot play a game without engaging with the rules of that game. You have to actually pick up and throw a die, or tell a computer to do so. You have to actually add up a number. You have to actually tally experience.

Do you disagree with either of these things?

Mostly in agreement. I think there's some nuance that doesn't reflect the absolutes that are worth clarifying.

I agree that the only necessary thing for storytelling, in general, is your imagination. However, storytelling in various mediums means engaging with that medium. If you choose to tell a story with a painting, you're going to engage with paints to produce it (among other trappings of the medium, such as canvasses, brushes, even display locations like galleries or restaurants). If you choose to tell a story with D&D, you're going to engage with game mechanics to produce it (among other trappings of the medium, such as other players, dice, etc.).

I agree in principle that to play a game, you need to engage with the rules of the game. Those rules can be entirely in your head, of course. A game of tag has rules, but you don't need to do any math or random number generation to play tag. A game can be played entirely in your imagination. To specifically play a game of D&D, you do need to engage with its rules, which include dice rolling, math, etc.

I believe that D&D is often at its best when medium and narrative work together to support each other.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Nono, I mean that sometimes is not malice, is something else. I meant Hanlon, but I see your point.
EDIT: thanks for the sources.
It will take time, because I need to go digging through the Internet Archive, but I can promise you a link where Heinsoo explicitly said that he had to repeatedly rein in his team from bumping up the Wizard's power until it was just a little better than everyone else. He had reckoned that the 4e Wizard might be slightly under-tuned relative to other classes as a consequence of this need to continually pull the Wizard back down.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
Would this be fixed a bit if they had made it truly Vancian casting - only four (maybe five) per day.
Or would the truly Vancian be loaded down with magic objects too and end up in the PF 1e trouble?
The easiest fix, I think, is to split combat and non-combat spells as they did in 4E and give everyone fairly easy access to non-combat spells via a 4E-style ritual system. The wizard only loses exclusive access to the most powerful spells.
 

mamba

Legend
That analogy would be rather more relevant if any of the component parts of Vancian casting had remotely evolved since their inception. They have not. The one and only meaningful change is that you don't prepare individual slots anymore...which is a pure buff to casters.
cantrips, upcasting spells…
 

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