D&D General New Interview with Rob Heinsoo About 4E

[Kaiyanwang]

I'm kind of tired of arguments via immersion. I have been told that mechanics for various games that I liked have necessarily broken immersion and therefore were not roleplaying games. I have been told that my experiences being immersed in character while playing these rules must be false because they themselves weren't immersed. Immersion is not a given. It is not so causally connected to rules as people like to pretend them to be, mostly a result of their game preferences than anything else.

None is talking about your experience. Which is the main issue for 50% of the thread, assuming personal experience as universal, and not accepting that other people's are not inherently irrational, wrong, not giving the rules a chance etc.

One of my favorite things about the AD&D 2E spell compendiums was that they tagged all of the spells in them with rarity ratings.

I presume this plus PF2e are a good start. Thanks.

 

[overgeeked]

This is not what people said tho. None lamented the lack of "RP rules" but instead lamented the lack of rules that facilitated immersion in their gameworld, as direct type of rule writing (don't let me use the D word again) or just disruption of setting, class feature and such.

Maybe you have the posters on ignore who're saying explicitly that the fact that the rules were clearly written was a problem for their RP and immersion.

 

[Cadence]

I'm kind of tired of arguments via immersion. I have been told that mechanics for various games that I liked have necessarily broken immersion and therefore were not roleplaying games. I have been told that my experiences being immersed in character while playing these rules must be false because they themselves weren't immersed. Immersion is not a given. It is not so causally connected to rules as people like to pretend them to be, mostly a result of their game preferences than anything else.

I haven't seen many that say it means they necessarily break it for everyone (which seems false on the surface for any games I've seen here - I mean, I've met some people that I think have gotten immersed in Chess) -- I can't recall any, but being here there must have been some so I don't doubt you!

On the other hand I can imagine lots of different games breaking immersion for other people (I can totally get why classic D&D HP break it for some people, while others gloss over it, for example). .

 

[Umbran]

That all strikes me as very intentionally trying to redefine words to avoid acknowledging the facts of the matter.

That strikes me as a rather bad-faith interpretation of what I said.

Mod Note:
These posts strike me as way too much rhetorical weight for the subject matter, and both of you are making it personal.

Can the two of you please dial it back, before someone says something even more regrettable? Please and thanks.

 

[overgeeked]

I see this argument a lot. I have never seen it actually happen in a game. Even my heavy optimizers never choose a Wizard.

The one time I saw anything remotely like it was with a Psion in a part with lower wisdom scores and the Psion could mind-control everyone.

Lucky you. It crops up every single time I play or run 5E.

 

[Kaiyanwang]

were clearly written

You see here? Are you sure that was the actual issue?
To me is more like the sterile format and the elimination of any spell and effect that was vague but great for the play and RP - this is what they said, to my understanding. Which if this is the case, is not the same thing. You are framing it as " clarity is an issue", sorry.

 

[Aldarc]

None is talking about your experience. Which is the main issue for 50% of the thread, assuming personal experience as universal, and not accepting that other people's are not inherently irrational, wrong, not giving the rules a chance etc.

I'm not assuming that my personal experience is universal. Quite the opposite, so spare your preaching.

 

[Neonchameleon]

These are just trappings of the medium.

And my point here is that D&D has a lot of trappings that are highly stylised.

Meanwhile what started this tangent was class roles. Class roles have no direct mechanical effect in the game (although they do have indirect effects). Objecting to class roles isn't turning up at the play and having problems because you can see the flying rig. It's turning up at the play and objecting not even to the casting but to the casting sheet.

 

[Undrave]

First and foremost no, adding 2 levels of class is not nearly a significant effort in any way, shape and form. It's a less then 5 minutes work in this case at least, and can last for every Marilith since.

Foreign alchemy is what it is!! To give 2 more level to a 4e Marilith you add 32 HP, and +2 to AC, Defenses, To Hit and Damage.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

This is not what people said tho.

Yes, it absolutely is, and I can get you forum links to that effect. Would send them privately to avoid cross-forum drama (I wasn't a user here at the time, IIRC.)

None lamented the lack of "RP rules"

Yes, they did.

but instead lamented the lack of rules that facilitated immersion in their gameworld,

They also lamented that. Beautiful catch-22: too many rules and you're unable to roleplay, too few and they aren't facilitating roleplay. No matter what 4e did, it was wrong by definition.

as direct type of rule writing (don't let me use the D word again) or just disruption of setting, class feature and such.

Wasn't that the thing you were arguing against? That the problem was not setting disruption? I don't understand.