D&D General New Interview with Rob Heinsoo About 4E

[Chaltab]

Honestly I don't know why the T-Rex would use a frying pan when their arms are so short. You'd think they'd just use their teeth or tail.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Love that!

It was awesome!

The big 4E campaign I was in, I made up a star pact warlock, and wrote a pretty brief backstory (he'd been born under an ill omen, had a freak twin brother who the midwife disappeared with, and because of all that his father hated him and kept him locked in the cellar until he got his powers). The DM took that and ran with it, even looking at my power choices and tying them into my character's backstory and, unknown to me at the time, major, linchpin factors of the overarching story.

One thing that I think 4e was very inspirational for, (which I acknowledge that some people don't like, but I don't understand why) was the idea to divorce mechanical crunch from implied fluff, when it is fun to do so. Every power had a little bit of pre-written fluff on how to imagine it, but it was explicit that it was only one possible example of how to imagine it.

This, over time, caused us to sometimes entirely throw out all of the established fluff and build a character that was mechanically consistent within the rules but entirely unique. Like how one of my players played a Shifter/Druid but whose story was that they were neither a "shifter" nor a "druid" but simply a fey animal spirit that looked like a panther, but could turn into a human (a reverse of wild-shape) and had some innate primal magical powers besides. Or the time that we all played pixies, except for the one player that played a warforged, and the story was that we were a group of pixies that lived inside an old construct that turned into a fey-Star Trek, where there was a "bridge" in the construct's head with pixies controlling the "robot" and an "engineering" section in the chest (as well as quarters) and pixies would go on "away missions" when they left the construct.

Sure, maybe it was a bit silly, but it was a fun game! Good for the short time it lasted.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Okay, I just have to ask. WTF? Was it at least a high quality frying pan? I've heard of the barbarian who had one spell - cast iron - but there's gotta be a story behind this.

I've long wondered what the draw is for some players who like to play a character that wouldn't want to adventure, or should ought not to be there (I've occasionally had "problem" players like that over the years). So I decided to play one (in my mind, how to do it "right").

IIRC, this was during the "Next" playtest and not 4e or 5e. We were playing the Isle of Dread. I built a Halfling Monk with a Cook background, that I fluffed as simply a "Halfling Chef". (Story-wise, he was a hireling for the actual Adventurers, like playing an NPC who's really a PC). He only wanted to feed the party and stay out of trouble.

But, the DM and I would always find a way to "force" him to come along for stuff, or you know, he's carrying the party supplies while they get ambushed by a predator. Things like his Monk AC was fluffed as all the stuff he was carrying giving him "padding". That sort of thing.

Like when the T-Rex tried to bite him: To explain how he lived through a T-Rex bite, when mechanically it was simply: He had the HP. Huge swaths of his survivability was, story-wise, just his "halfling luck" combined with pure desperation on his part. So like, when he hit the T-Rex in the nose with his frying pan, while in a mad scramble to get away, it was a Monk's Stunning Strike mechanically, but a fat halfling chef with a frying pan... CLANG! in the story.

I know this kind of "UBER-Refluffing" is not for everyone, but it can be very fun.

Honestly I don't know why the T-Rex would use a frying pan when their arms are so short. You'd think they'd just use their teeth or tail.

I once shot an Elephant in my pajamas. How it got in my pajamas, I'll never know!

 

[Undrave]

But you know what was a much bigger influence than anything from WoW? Soccer. That's where marking comes from. That's why they made two different styles of marks during 4e's run, one being a "pick a person, menace them" style, the other being the "pick an area, lock it down" style--because those are actually real methods used by people who play soccer. Indeed, all of the role names actually come from soccer. Defenders are defending your end of the field and your goal from the opposition. Strikers are the ones trying to get the ball across the field. Controllers try to maintain vigilance and control over an area of the field. Leaders push ahead of the strikers to pave the way for the strikers to land shots. 4e, unlike any previous (or subsequent...) D&D, was actually designed to be a team effort, rather than a "five people who happen to adventure in the same places at the same time" activity.

When I was in high school I wasn't very athletic, but when we played like basketball in PE, I would often found myself picked surprisingly early by team captains, especially the ones in after school sport, because I was a very dedicated defender. I'd pick a player and stick to them like glue! I rarely took the ball or scored, but I wouldn't chase it all willy-nilly, and would do my best to always be between the ball and my chosen player. It also helped I was tall with long arms.

 

[niklinna]

When I was in high school I wasn't very athletic, but when we played like basketball in PE, I would often found myself picked surprisingly early by team captains, especially the ones in after school sport, because I was a very dedicated defender. I'd pick a player and stick to them like glue! I rarely took the ball or scored, but I wouldn't chase it all willy-nilly, and would do my best to always be between the ball and my chosen player. It also helped I was tall with long arms.

But favored foe is a ranger thing.

 

[Retreater]

But 4E without a defender? I have to admit I would have bluntly told the group that was going to be frustrating at best.

I know. I've told em.
Had a new player join us. He made the barbarian - because "it's the striker that is kinda like a defender" (he said). Also begged a few other players to take one.

I am wondering now which online tools the two of you are using.

Just Google "4e database" - it should come up.

Why are you doing such an adventure when it's clear none of you want that?

It's become more clear as we've gone along. They didn't dig the urban mystery stuff, so I figured a dungeon would be a good idea. I was wrong apparently. Kinda painted into a corner right now. Can't just switch everything.

It really does sound like you need a break from DMing. Do you ever get a chance to play? Maybe with another group?

I did have someone in another group offer - for the first time in like 7 years. I've been running multiple games every week since COVID started. I'm exhausted, y'all.

 

[Oofta]

...
I did have someone in another group offer - for the first time in like 7 years. I've been running multiple games every week since COVID started. I'm exhausted, y'all.

Sometimes you just need to take a break, even if it means there aren't games. Burnout can take all sorts of forms and it may be part of the issue with the group you've been discussing. Take it easy on yourself, cut back or even take a hiatus for a bit if it's gotten to the breaking point. Good luck.

 

[niklinna]

I know. I've told em.
Had a new player join us. He made the barbarian - because "it's the striker that is kinda like a defender" (he said). Also begged a few other players to take one.

They all knew they were going to have a rough time without a defender and yet went ahead without one. You could take the blame for agreeing to DM that group with no defender, but really it's on them. Doesn't sound like explaining that to them, or even offering the option for somebody to switch to any defender class, is going to help.

Just Google "4e database" - it should come up.

Oh yeah I know that one.

It's become more clear as we've gone along. They didn't dig the urban mystery stuff, so I figured a dungeon would be a good idea. I was wrong apparently. Kinda painted into a corner right now. Can't just switch everything.

I did have someone in another group offer - for the first time in like 7 years. I've been running multiple games every week since COVID started. I'm exhausted, y'all.

Definitely sounds like you need a break. I understand this particular group has time constraints and you want to see it through, but I'd argue that all your other games can go on hiatus until you recover, whether by avoiding gaming as much as possible or getting in some player-side time.

 

[Undrave]

The tracking of multiple modifiers & conditions, now, that I could've done without.

If I was remaking 4e (or a 4e inspired heartbreaker) I would make all long term conditions work off the saving throw mechanic, both negative AND positive:

At the end of each turn you roll a d20, if you roll 11 and up you remove 1 negative condition, and if you roll 10 or below you remove 1 buff. Everything else would be until the end of your next turn (or positive transformations just until the end of the encounter). Then you can just use tokens to keep track of buffs and debuffs in a corner of your sheet. You could even use it to have buffs that can progressively go down! Instead of going from +2 to 0 you go from +2 to +1 and then 0.

It's become more clear as we've gone along. They didn't dig the urban mystery stuff, so I figured a dungeon would be a good idea. I was wrong apparently. Kinda painted into a corner right now. Can't just switch everything.

Hmm... Cave to the under dark in the basement?

 

[niklinna]

If I was remaking 4e (or a 4e inspired heartbreaker) I would make all long term conditions work off the saving throw mechanic, both negative AND positive:

At the end of each turn you roll a d20, if you roll 11 and up you remove 1 negative condition, and if you roll 10 or below you remove 1 buff. Everything else would be until the end of your next turn (or positive transformations just until the end of the encounter). Then you can just use tokens to keep track of buffs and debuffs in a corner of your sheet. You could even use it to have buffs that can progressively go down! Instead of going from +2 to 0 you go from +2 to +1 and then 0.

Hm, I could see people then slapping on lots of buffs since you're gonna lose 1 at most per round. Same applies to debuffs too. And presumably the person rolling would choose which buff/debuff goes? Sure would beat rolling lots of saves every round though.