D&D General New Interview with Rob Heinsoo About 4E

[Oofta]

This may be news to you, but opinions can be false. You can state that in your opinion the moon is made of cheese. That does not make it so nor does it mean that your "opinion" can't be criticized.


You should know from past discussion and debate you have partaken in on this forum numerous times that there is undoubtedly baggage in calling a fighter's abilities supernatural.

Having a supernatural ability does not make one a caster. I can't help it if some people disagree with my impression of fighter abilities.

What other term is there? Fantastical?

 

[Cadence]

Having a supernatural ability does not make one a caster. I can't help it if some people disagree with my impression of fighter abilities.

What other term is there? Fantastical?

As was noted above, there is "extraordinary" from 3.5 Special Abilities :: d20srd.org ("Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.")

As I've said before, I really wish either the game itself or the campaign settings said what the baseline is for what folks can do without "magic or supernatural powers". Is it just IRL? Is it James Bond or action heroes or Conan/Fafhrd? Is it Crouching Tiger/Hidden Dragon level Wuxia or Hawkeye/Black Widow?

My guess is that many standard things in early editions of DnD are (at the least) arguably extraordinary compared to IRL, like falling damage, shrugging off being swatted by a dragon, speed of nonmagic healing - and certainly 5e encumbrance rules.

 

[Aldarc]

What other term is there? Fantastical?

Did I not earlier suggest the term "extraordinary" or did your basic reading skills fail you when replying to my earlier posts? I am honestly puzzled that you can ask this as if people haven't proposed other terms. It gives me the impression that you are being disingenuous in this discussion.

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FWIW, I did find this excerpt in Martial Power 2 that talks further about the Martial Power source.

What Is Martial Power?
From where does the fighter summon the strength for such fierce attacks? How does the rogue learn to perform feats of astounding agility? What hidden reservoir of spirit does the warlord tap when he or she steps forward and commands allies to strike as one?

The martial power source might seem as though it isn’t a power source at all. A martial practitioner can’t produce overtly supernatural effects, such as rays of blinding radiance or shields of invisible magic force. However, martial power does have a source, even if it is an inconspicuous one. Martial power is the combination of three qualities acting in concert: natural ability such as great strength or uncanny agility, the determination to act, and learned skill acquired through endless hours of practice. For a brief moment, the martial hero combines these three components in the performance of a move, maneuver, or feat of arms, exceeding the normal physical limitations of his or her body and training.

To put it another way, most people go through their lives using only a fraction of their true capability. Martial heroes have learned how to routinely exceed their normal limits and unlock more of their physical potential than anyone else. They can’t perform magical deeds, such as teleporting through alternate dimensions or becoming transparent, but they can make leaps of astonishing speed and distance or take advantage of the smallest distraction to slip out of sight. With timing and skill, a wiry halfling hero can throw a harder punch than a human laborer twice his or her size, because the halfling knows how to dig down and use more of his or her potential than the bigger, muscular human. The human laborer might have more raw strength, but that human doesn’t know how to use it the way the halfling does.

The components of the martial power source are present in all creatures. However, few creatures learn to exceed their ordinary limits on a regular basis. A big, strong blacksmith driven into an absolute fury can hit with great force, but that doesn’t mean that an angry blacksmith’s punch is a martial exploit. It doesn’t have the precise power and split-second timing that a martial hero’s attack routinely achieves. Consequently, martial heroes soon exceed the skills of common people, especially in their chosen fields of expertise.

Some folks believe that the gods wanted mortal races to be capable of greater achievements than the gods could envision during the days of creation, and so they bestowed the capacity for incredible deeds upon each race. Others believe that the gods unknowingly created children greater than themselves, not understanding the true limits of the mortal races they shaped so long ago. Regardless of the veracity of this story, it’s true that the gods have long been fascinated with mortal heroes, especially those who accomplish great deeds without the aid of magical energy.

Let's be clear that the last paragraph is supposition from inhabitants in the world. It's story and myth.

 

[Clint_L]

As was noted above, there is "extraordinary" from 3.5 Special Abilities :: d20srd.org ("Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics...

To me this seems like a meaningless distinction. Something that breaks natural laws is, by definition, supernatural. Calling it "magical" versus "extraordinary" doesn't make a difference. It's supernatural.

It's kind of like the difference between magic and psionics. One is supernatural abilities from the mind, and the other supernatural ability from spell books, or gods, or whatever.

It's all magic, in effect.

 

[Oofta]

Did I not earlier suggest the term "extraordinary" or did your basic reading skills fail you when replying to my earlier posts? I am honestly puzzled that you can ask this as if people haven't proposed other terms. It gives me the impression that you are being disingenuous in this discussion.

-----

FWIW, I did find this excerpt in Martial Power 2 that talks further about the Martial Power source.

Let's be clear that the last paragraph is supposition from inhabitants in the world. It's story and myth.

People in the real world are extraordinary. Fighters in other versions are extraordinary, as are all PCs at a certain point.

Having supernatural abilities does not make you a caster. A werewolf is supernatural, zombies are supernatural, a dragon may cast spells but they do not have to in order to be considered supernatural.

Fighters in 4E were too fantastical for me.

 

[Clint_L]

Why does the distinction between natural, supernatural, and maybe a universe with different physics matter? This is all fantasy fiction, anyway.

For me, it matters because of my character fantasy. Sometimes, I want a character who kicks butt without need supernatural abilities to do so. An Indiana Jones, Furiosa, or Conan type. In those cases, it is important to me that the character feel broadly realistic to what a human being can do. Really important. If I'm watching a film and it violates that, it takes me out of the story - I'm no longer buying the character (surviving a being thrown hundreds of metres by a nuclear blast by being inside a refrigerator, for example).

I don't mind if my intentionally mundane character can do things that are extraordinary, even probably impossible, as long as it doesn't require me to squint too hard and thus violate my character fantasy. Being a bit stronger or quicker than is likely possible is okay. Jumping 50 feet or punching through a steel door...no. That's not what that character is supposed to be. That's supernatural territory.

D&D 5e currently supports both options. You can be a basically mundane hero and still be awesome, or you can be an awesome hero partially because of your supernatural abilities.

There need to remain options that support the mundane, yet still kick-butt character archetype. It's a fantasy staple for a reason.

 

[Aldarc]

People in the real world are extraordinary. Fighters in other versions are extraordinary, as are all PCs at a certain point.

Having supernatural abilities does not make you a caster. A werewolf is supernatural, zombies are supernatural, a dragon may cast spells but they do not have to in order to be considered supernatural.

Fighters in 4E were too fantastical for me.

Fighters in 4e are also extraordinary.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

FWIW, I did find this excerpt in Martial Power 2 that talks further about the Martial Power source.

best answer yet...

 

[Oofta]

Fighters in 4e are also extraordinary.

Doesn't mean they can't also be something else, something distinctly different from fighters in other editions.

 

[Cadence]

To me this seems like a meaningless distinction. Something that breaks natural laws is, by definition, supernatural. Calling it "magical" versus "extraordinary" doesn't make a difference. It's supernatural.

It's kind of like the difference between magic and psionics. One is supernatural abilities from the mind, and the other supernatural ability from spell books, or gods, or whatever.

It's all magic, in effect.

Why does the distinction between natural, supernatural, and maybe a universe with different physics matter? This is all fantasy fiction, anyway.

For me, it matters because of my character fantasy. Sometimes, I want a character who kicks butt without need supernatural abilities to do so. An Indiana Jones or Conan type. In those cases, it is important to me that the character feel broadly realistic to what a human being can do. Really important. If I'm watching a film and it violates that, it takes me out of the story - I'm no longer buying the character (surviving a being thrown hundreds of metres by a nuclear blast by being inside a refrigerator, for example).

I don't mind if my intentionally mundane character can do things that are extraordinary, even probably impossible, as long as it doesn't require me to squint too hard and thus violate my character fantasy. Being a bit stronger or quicker than is likely possible is okay. Jumping 50 feet or punching through a steel door...no. That's not what that character is supposed to be. That's supernatural territory.

There need to remain options that support the mundane, yet still kick-butt character archetype. It's a fantasy staple for a reason.

What is "broadly realistic"? Do each of us have a different level of where that cut-off is before getting to "punching through a steel door" [which I agree with you on as going farther than I want]?

Is Hawkeye "magic" or "supernatural" within the Comics/MCU?
Is James Bond or John McClane "magic" or "supernatural" within their movies worlds?
Are the characters in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon "magic" or "supernatural" in their worlds?
Or do the dials in those worlds for what is normal just go higher?

I agree with you that the mundane doing big heroic things is the staple in fiction for some characters - is being just an "ordinary guy" part of what makes Hawkeye and Batman who they are?

Do the falling damage rules in every edition go too far for you? The 5e encumbrance default rules? The speed of healing in any edition? etc...