D&D (2024) New stealth rules.

[Kinematics]

Yeah, See Invisibility in conjunction with hiding making use of the Invisible condition starts getting weird.

When See Invisibility was just the ability to see through the illusion that the Invisibility spell caused, it made sense. (And also the ethereal plane, but that's not relevant here.)

Now that hiding grants the condition of Invisibility, if a rogue runs behind a tree (three-quarters cover) and hides, can the person with See Invisibility still see him? Though he's supposed to be out of line of sight as well, so probably not immediately, but what about when he moves?

Or put another way, does See Invisible (never mind True Seeing) functionally negate stealth? Is it fundamentally impossible to sneak past someone with See Invisible?

This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it does change the thought process on handling stealth. There are some creatures that you expect players shouldn't be able to sneak past, and this is a fairly simple way to ensure that. Though it makes you wonder why the city guard don't all wear helmets with a See Invisible enchantment. (Maybe they do? Or at least the upper ranks.)

And since some mentioned dragons earlier in the thread, a few checks darkvision and blindsight are pretty typical of most dragons, and mesh with some clarifications/house rules I'd put in:

1. If you end your turn in line of sight of an enemy creature, and you are not in an area that in some way hinders perception (dim light, darkness, light or heavy obscurement, or some sort of cover), then you lose the Invisible condition granted by hiding. If the creature has some way of overcoming the source of concealment (darkvision, Devil's Sight, blindsense, etc), then that concealment doesn't count for the purpose of remaining hidden. See Invisible and True Seeing always overcome the Invisible condition unless you end your turn behind total cover.
2. If a creature's passive perception matches or beats your Stealth check, the creature is alerted to the fact that someone is there, and may choose to make a Search check to find you. (Option?: You do not get advantage on attacks against an alerted creature, although the creature still has disadvantage when attempting to attack you.)
3. You may drop the Invisible condition granted by Hiding as a free action.

Not sure whether See Invisible and/or True Seeing should counter the Invisible status if you are at any time not behind total cover. I could see it going either way.

And yes, the concealment options are less restrictive than the original conditions needed to hide in the first place.

Well, I'm sure plenty of people will come up with their own ways of handling the ambiguities of the new stealth rules.

 

[mellored]

The question is what is required to find you, and I am not sure it needs a search action for that regardless of what you do

I suppose if you claim a guard found you by smelled as you walked in front of him, that would be RAW.

Breaking the Hide action, but not the Invisible spell.

 

[mamba]

That's not on the list of things that break it.

you being found is, to me that can happen due to your actions just as well

 

[mamba]

I suppose if you claim a guard found you by smelled as you walked in front of him, that would be RAW.

Breaking the Hide action, but not the Invisible spell.

no, the hide action itself is immediate, it has no duration, what ends is absolutely the condition

"On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition. [...]

The condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component."

 

[mamba]

Yeah, See Invisibility in conjunction with hiding making use of the Invisible condition starts getting weird.

When See Invisibility was just the ability to see through the illusion that the Invisibility spell caused, it made sense. (And also the ethereal plane, but that's not relevant here.)

Now that hiding grants the condition of Invisibility, if a rogue runs behind a tree (three-quarters cover) and hides, can the person with See Invisibility still see him? Though he's supposed to be out of line of sight as well, so probably not immediately, but what about when he moves?

yep, that is another unintended (?) consequence

 

[mellored]

no, the hide action itself is immediate, it has no duration, what ends is absolutely the condition

"The condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component."

And if none of those occurs, it doesn't end.

You could spend years walking around a city, whispering, not attack anyone, casting any spells with a Verbal component, or being found by an enemy.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

We should probably use examples other than dragons, who are famously good at spotting invisible folks.

 

[Maxperson]

This position requires redefining the word "while"

Definition of WHILE

a period of time especially when short and marked by the occurrence of an action or a condition : time; the time and effort used (as in the performance of an action) : trouble… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

The occurrence of the condition is no longer true if you choose to end that occurrence, say by walking directly towards someone who can clearly see you

That paragraph is entirely about taking the hide action to become hidden(invisible) and there is nothing there that involves remaining hidden(invisible). The next paragraph deals with how to remain hidden(invisible) and gives all the ways that end it.

 

[mamba]

And if none of those occurs, it doesn't end.

of course, but you stepping out of the bush and the guard finding you are one and the same

You could spend years walking around a city, whispering, not attack anyone, casting any spells with a Verbal component, or being found by an enemy.

so your emphasis is on enemy, fait enough I guess, replace by creature, done

 

[mellored]

of course, but you stepping out of the bush and the guard finding you are one and the same

He can't see you to find you.

But if you want to rule that he finds you by smell, touch, sound, or taste (?) then sure. That works.

Guard dogs would get advantage (+5) to smelling.