No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[Rokes]

I can't believe no one has mentioned Ray Deflection (SpC p.166)

Completely negates all ranged touch attacks. Goodbye Orb Sorcerer, goodbye Beholder.

I admit that it's a small bandaid vs. these orb spells. But the look on the DMs face when my fighter-mage cast this vs. a Beholder was priceless.

 

[Pssthpok]

I don't have Energy Admixture at hand. Does it let you do 20d6 at 13th level with that 7th level spell slot? Because if so, that is quite significantly different and better than delayed blast fireball doing 20d6 seven levels later.

It feels more and more to me that the problems with the orb spells are actually problems with metamagic.

DING!! Give this man the Kewpie doll, he just nailed it on the head.

 

[IanB]

Your analysis here is skewed. It discusses only one creature and that one, one of the best touch ACs once it puts up defenses. The creatures that an Orb user would target would not be ones with miss chances (of which you had 3). However, until they get those defenses up, all of the creatures you listed are reasonable targets.

Absolutely. I'm not arguing the orbs are going to be useless against things with high touch ACs. I'm saying they're not going to be slam dunks. I'm not denying the orbs are strong options. Strong options, I'm ok with. (I worry a lot about the non-core metamagic feats though, as those seem to be too much.)

And it makes sense for a party of higher level PCs to use tactics (and possibly code words) so that the Fighter moves away from a Balor so that the Wizard can blast him with an Orb. Players do not have to play their PCs stupid.

I think my players may have a different definition of stupid than yours, given this plan involving giving AOOs to a creature with a vorpal weapon.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Well... unless you get Easy Metamagic or Arcane Thesis or whatever into the mix too, right?

Then suddenly an admixtured empowered orb is possible, or a twinned admixtured fireball?

True!--don't allow Thesis; that's what's broken, not Twin Spell or Admixture. Orbs are, as we have shown, broken without those feats, though.

 

[IanB]

By the way, a house rule I've been considering that helps soften the hit that golems take from orb spells (if you consider that the straw that broke the camel's back in this case):

Take DR away from golems, give them hardness equivalent to their former DR (or material type, pending some testing there), and apply the normal rules for energy damage vs. objects (when the energy damage is from an ignores-SR source.)

 

[Henry]

So, aggravated dispositions aside, what is the end solution that the nay-sayers think will 'solve' the 'imbalance' of the orb spells?

Spell Resistance? Sometimes, the caster will penetrate SR, so will the problem still exist?

For me, this or a save for half would fix it totally. The ranged touch attack is such a low barrier that I've never seen it an issue; the majority of monsters have lousy touch ac's, more lousy than a wizard's ability to boost his touch attack bonus, to the point where it might as well automatically hit.

So the chance for a half-save or an SR negation would be fine with me. The spells aren't completely unsaveable, they're just slightly over that line of "too darned good". As I noted, sorcerers in our campaigns especailly are taking them left and right.

 

[Henry]

I think my players may have a different definition of stupid than yours, given this plan involving giving AOOs to a creature with a vorpal weapon.

And if that fighter has tumble, he's good to go!

Plus, the wizard worth his salt who frequently uses ranged touch attacks will certainly have precise shot. It's too good NOT to have for a touch-attacker.

 

[Elethiomel]

Why does everyone assume the Orbs work against Golems?
- They have a fortitude save.
- They do not have the [Object] descriptor.

 

[IanB]

Why does everyone assume the Orbs work against Golems?
- They have a fortitude save.
- They do not have the [Object] descriptor.

Golems are creatures, not objects.

 

[Elethiomel]

Golems are creatures, not objects.

But they are immune to effects that require a fortitude save unless they also work on objects.