No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[Deset Gled]

That's a lot of sodium!

But seriously, I don't know how well I like that definition, because it leaves most of 3.5 in the grey area of imbalance. And that, my friends, makes this entire discussion moot.

I hardly think it makes the OP's question moot, but it does shift the discussion more towards this one: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=194436

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Polar Ray does 10d6 more damage and similarly offers no save, however; no one is complaining about that here. Why? SR, apparently, and maybe spell level. SR is a golden idol that to tread on is tantamount to insulting?

1) Polar Ray has a CAP that is 10d6 higher. It CAN, in extreme circumstances, do 10d6 more damage... but for most casters it will not.
2) The higher spell level means that you can metamagic the orbs. A Maximized Orb of Cold is a lower level than Polar Ray, and even for a 25th-level caster the orb does more damage on average.
3) You need an 18 Int to cast Polar Ray. You need a 14 Int to cast a Maximized Orb of Cold. Might not matter much for PCs, but it may for NPCs, multiclassed casters, PCs suffering from ability drain, PCs in a low-point-buy or 3d6-in-order system, etc.

So, in general, Orb of Cold is MUCH stronger Polar Ray already... and then we have the SR issue.

 

[KarinsDad]

And my argument will stand under any circumstances where yours won't.

Your argument is a copout. It takes more thought to analyze the information and less thought to say "no problem, as DM I can just do whatever I want, regardless of plausibility".

A clever DM won't worry about one group of conjuration spells; they certainly won't come crying to the boards to try and change everyone else's mind on using those spells.

It's called discourse, not crying. If you cannot understand the difference, maybe you shouldn't cry about it.

People come here to discuss differing points of view (and yours is fine for you), but an opinion of DM fiat is not backed up with any real balance facts, hence, it is IMO an unsupported and even irrational opinion.

And blowing off these types of balance discussions is not the sign of a "clever DM".

'Imbalance' only really sticks as a label on things that are absolute-hands-down-must-haves, and the orbs just aren't that good. Yeah, they do damage with no SR, but single-target spells aren't always the cream of the crop and there are many times when damage just isn't the answer to an encounter. Even when it is, the orbs spells aren't always the best option. I mean, arguably, Improved Initiative is more 'imbalanced' because I see it in more builds than I see the orb spells.

I have not seen an arcane caster since Complete Arcane come out who has not taken at least one Orb spell. So, they pretty much are must have spells.

When 3E first came out nearly 7 years ago, Improved Initiative was a big deal for many people and often put into rogue and arcane builds. In the last 4 years, I have not seen it taken and never see it in builds anymore. When analyzed (going back to concept of studying and comprehending game elements, not just blowing analysis off), it just does not supply the bang for the buck of other feats. Granted, much of this is probably due to the "bigger, badder, better" concept of feats in latter splat books. There are just too many great feat options anymore that a fairly decent one like II is no longer in the running.

However, I could see II making a comeback as Nova capability starts increasing in splat books. Orbs by themselves are not Nova, they are just almost auto-hit. But for casters who can manage to up the power of the Orbs with appropriate metamagic and other abilities to Nova and even Supernova levels, it is quite reasonable for II to be a strong choice for that type of caster. But for most caster concepts where they may or may not succeed with their spells (i.e. not near auto-hit), it is just not that necessary.

 

[James McMurray]

Why do people continue to use Polar Ray as an example? It sucks. Next to it Scorching Ray looks broken because maximized it's 3 levels lower and does almost as much damage (which you can spread around to 3 targets if you need to).

 

[Pssthpok]

So, aggravated dispositions aside, what is the end solution that the nay-sayers think will 'solve' the 'imbalance' of the orb spells?

Spell Resistance? Sometimes, the caster will penetrate SR, so will the problem still exist?

No save versus damage? Sometimes, the target will fail the save, so will the problem still exist?

Touch attack? How many other spells would have to change?

Or splatbooks in general?

 

[IanB]

6) Huh? Twin and Energy Admixture are not that good. Honest! Particularly if you think Empower is balanced. Empower gives you 50% extra damage for +2 levels. Admixture gives you +100% damage for +4 levels--it's exactly the same gain to cost ratio, just expanded. Energy Admixture + Fireball gives you 20d6 as a level 7 spell. So does just casting Delayed Blast Fireball. The feats are perfectly fine.

I don't have Energy Admixture at hand. Does it let you do 20d6 at 13th level with that 7th level spell slot? Because if so, that is quite significantly different and better than delayed blast fireball doing 20d6 seven levels later.

It feels more and more to me that the problems with the orb spells are actually problems with metamagic.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I don't have Energy Admixture at hand. Does it let you do 20d6 at 13th level with that 7th level spell slot? Because if so, that is quite significantly different and better than delayed blast fireball doing 20d6 seven levels later.

It feels more and more to me that the problems with the orb spells are actually problems with metamagic.

Yes it does, but the DC is 4 lower and you lose out on the Delayed Blast aspect, so it is perfectly reasonable in general (against opponents that might have failed the save, the 20% increase in chance to make the save nearly cancels out the gain in damage, and what is level is reasonable for a feat, plus at every level after 13 Delayed Blast gets better and better compared to Admixtured Fireball). But hey, Empower Spell lets you cast a 15d6 Fireball as a level 5 spell at level 10 (rather than a 15d6 Cone of Cold at level 15), so it's the same deal. Psst's argument that Empower is not broken and Admixture/Twin are is deceptive, and he has to use Epic levels as an example because of it. Particularly, his claim that they stack is rather pointless--the best you're going to do is cast a Twinned Admixtured level 1 spell as a 9th-level slot. No thanks, I want my Meteor Swarm

 

[James McMurray]

I don't have Energy Admixture at hand. Does it let you do 20d6 at 13th level with that 7th level spell slot? Because if so, that is quite significantly different and better than delayed blast fireball doing 20d6 seven levels later.

It lets you do 26d6 20d6 at 13th level. Basically it doubles the dice on a energy damage spell by adding another element to the mix. At 15th level you'll be doing 30d6. IIRC the cost is 4 spell levels.

As an interesting comparison, the epic metamagic feat Enhance Spell also costs four levels, but rather than flat out doubling the damage it adds 10 levels to the damage cap, meaning you'd still have to actually have those caster levels. Compared to Twin and Admixture the epic feat is pathetic.

edit: forgot we were talking about 7th level spell slots, although there's probably a 15d6 capped thiurd level spell out there somewhere that could be used with admixture to deal the 26d6.

 

[Rystil Arden]

It lets you do 26d6 20d6 at 13th level. Basically it doubles the dice on a energy damage spell by adding another element to the mix. At 15th level you'll be doing 30d6. IIRC the cost is 4 spell levels.

As an interesting comparison, the epic metamagic feat Enhance Spell also costs four levels, but rather than flat out doubling the damage it adds 10 levels to the damage cap, meaning you'd still have to actually have those caster levels. Compared to Twin and Admixture the epic feat is pathetic.

edit: forgot we were talking about 7th level spell slots, although there's probably a 15d6 capped thiurd level spell out there somewhere that could be used with admixture to deal the 26d6.

Arguing using epic feats is not really effective at all, since they were 3.0. Some of the epic feats would suck as regular feats, and many of them have regular feats that are purely better than they are in 3.5.

 

[IanB]

Yes it does, but the DC is 4 lower and you lose out on the Delayed Blast aspect, so it is perfectly reasonable in general (against opponents that might have failed the save, the 20% increase in chance to make the save nearly cancels out the gain in damage, and what is level is reasonable for a feat, plus at every level after 13 Delayed Blast gets better and better compared to Admixtured Fireball). But hey, Empower Spell lets you cast a 15d6 Fireball as a level 5 spell at level 10 (rather than a 15d6 Cone of Cold at level 15), so it's the same deal. Psst's argument that Empower is not broken and Admixture/Twin are is deceptive, and he has to use Epic levels as an example because of it. Particularly, his claim that they stack is rather pointless--the best you're going to do is cast a Twinned Admixtured level 1 spell as a 9th-level slot. No thanks, I want my Meteor Swarm

Well... unless you get Easy Metamagic or Arcane Thesis or whatever into the mix too, right?

Then suddenly an admixtured empowered orb is possible, or a twinned admixtured fireball?