nWoD Advice?

[Mercule]

My group has decided it's time to do something other than D&D for a while (just need a change of pace) and we're looking at nWoD. I've got Vampire, Mage, and Promethean at my disposal, already, but I'm trying to figure out the best fit for my group.

I think we're going to start with a hunters (not capitalized on purpose) game and do a short run of that first, just because with no one but me knowing the implied setting, it'll be our one short at really evoking the right sense of mystery. None of us really think that's where we want to stay for long -- just a story or two -- but it's a good intro. The question, then, is "What's next?"

Vampire is out. Not because it's a bad game, but because that was what we played the most of in oWoD and the veterans are unanimous is wanting something different.

I'd love to do the chronicle in the Promethean books as something of a secondary introduction, since you don't need to worry about any deeper mythos than the single line. One player (who dealt the most with humanity loss and alternate moralities in the old Vampire) is rather concerned about the Prometheans being distinctly inhuman and is afraid the quest humanity will have a lot of similarities to stuff she doesn't care to revisit. Thoughts?

I'd also like to try Mage, since that was probably my favorite of the oWoD, but I hated the Technocracy and Ascension War. The new system looks really, really cleaned up. Still, old Mage was easily the most complex of the oWoD games, and I suspect that's true in nWoD. How is it in practice?

I've been eying Werewolf and Changeling, too. I hated the old Werewolf and pretty much banned them from my game (though I did allow a Pumonca), but what I've heard of the new backstory sounds much more interesting. Is the all-consuming Wyrm out of there? What's the core theme? Does the "inhumaness" concern of my player apply here?

How about Changeling? I know next to nothing about it, other than the PCs were actually snatched by fairies and escaped, have cool powers, aren't totally human anymore, and politics are important. I've heard it's an extremely good game, though. What's it like?

My end goal is to run something in the "urban fantasy" genre, like Harry Dresden, Supernatural, Moonlight, or Angel, with the PCs as clear heroes, but lots of magic and a hidden world. I don't mind some moral quandries, but no one wants the angst of frequent morality checks or inhuman behavior -- we're married, with kids, now. Dresden is probably the best match for what I'm wanting, but it doesn't matter if it revolves around wizards or not.

Suggestions? Thoughts?

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Well to get my own bias out of the way first Promethean: The Created is my number one favourite RPG. So that will probably colour my response to that one.

Promethean: Essentially the main concept of Promethean is to become human, or if one doesn't reach his/her "Great Work" (the act of becoming Human) then to understand humanity at least. The method of uncovering what it means to be Human differs for each Promethean usually influenced by the Refinement they choose.

One thing you should take into account very seriously is that Prometheans NEED to be always on the move. This is quite unlike many WoD games where you will probably end up covering lots of territory. Why? Because of Disquiet, Disquiet effects humans, animals, supernatural beings and the land itself. For you are unnatural, you were not meant to be, and as such the land itself and the things that live within it rise up against you overtime. The manner in which it does so depends on what Lineage you are.

There is a rich but mysterious backstory with Promethean. With such things as Pandorans (failed Prometheans) who are monstorous beings whose only concern is devouring sources of Azoth, of which the largest resource is others Prometheans. There are Qashmallim who are beings made of the Divine Fire who may help or hinder Prometheans. They are the first hint of "angels" in nWoD.

It probably isn't the best since it is something that the players and Storyteller need to devote a lot of time too. Since you are uncovering the basic idea of what it means to be Human. Your also not clear heroes (especially when Disquiet takes over) and your probably not gonna spend much time in large cities, more skirting around the outside of towns and villages.

Werewolf: I don't know as much about Werewolf as I do the others but it has certainly changed quite a bit. Your no longer dealing with nature, your now dealing with Spirits and other Werewolves. The basic premise is your the "Forsaken" the sons and daughters of the wolves that killed Father Wolf. You are hunted down by the Pure the werewolves whose ancestors never forsake the Father Wolf. Even with this danger you have chosen to take on the task of essentially policing the Spirit-World.

The Spirits that reside within the Spirit-World can be influenced by and influence the actual world. As such you as Werewolves must patrol your region of territory and stop Spirits that you deem unwanted. Sometimes your engaging them in the Spirit-World, other times in the real-world in which they usually have some form they have taken.

I could see this working for your group. It has you trying to protect a area of a city, your stopping nasty Spirits. It is more "urban fantasy" then Vampire or Promethean.

Changeling: This Changeling certainly isn't like the Changeling of oWoD. In this one you were once a normal person living out their lives till a True Fey chose you, or you wandered off into the Hedge and was found. You were taken to Arcadia the home of the True Fey where you were the unwilling slave of that True Fey. As time passed your role there began to influence what you would become when you escaped. If for example you each day were transformed into a fox to be hunted it is likely you would become a Beast-Changeling.

Sooner or later you escape from Arcadia. As you stumble through the Hedge, the border between our world and Arcadia your last traces of being human are stripped away. You usually end up stumbling back to a place in the world with many memories from your human days. Likely this is home, however, you more likely then not have not been missed. A Fetch a construct made in your image has taken your place.

Some Changelings murder their Fetch and try to replace him, others, probably most. Seek out other Changelings and in doing so the Courts. There are four Courts, Autumn, Winter, Summer and Spring. Each has their own role in Changeling society and each has different emotions they find most pleasant (you need to be around emotions to "recharge"). Depending on your game you could involve yourself in the politics of the Courts or not.

The Hedge and other Hedge creatures. Is probably where you will find the most "urban fantasy", especially in places like the Goblin Market (think kinda like the Troll Market from Hellboy 2). You could base your game around stopping the plans of True Fey or stopping various Hedge creatures that have made into our world, etc. I would say this be the most "urban fantasy" given that either in the form of Changelings or Hedge or True Fey creatures many fantasy beings exist.

 

[Lord Xtheth]

I would suggest Hunter: The Vigil. I have yet to play it myself, but I've read through the rules and think would make for a great "Hero vs. Villian" game system. Especially if you want to make a game reflecting Supernatural or Angel.

 

[Mercule]

I would suggest Hunter: The Vigil. I have yet to play it myself, but I've read through the rules and think would make for a great "Hero vs. Villian" game system. Especially if you want to make a game reflecting Supernatural or Angel.

Actually, Hunter is the one game I've ruled out. We don't want to do a long term mortals game. Even if I did, I explicitly would want to avoid large-scale organizations (especially stuff that feels like the X-Files), or even the smaller groups beyond the characters. Because of that, most of the Hunter book would be a waste and my money would be better spent on core WoD books like "Book of Spirits" (which I own and like) or something similar.

Basically, I read through a good amount of Hunter at Barnes & Noble and decided that the line is primarily providing tools for the sorts of mortals games I don't want. None of the groups appeal to me -- most actually turn me off. The "powers" are generally tied to those groups, so those aren't useful, except maybe the Lucifage, but I don't want the old H:tR, either -- if we're doing mortals, we'll do mortals.

For Angel, I was more thinking about how they interacted with the other supernatural denizens of the world. I didn't mention Buffy because I don't want the Slayer or H:tR feel. Supernatural is what I'm thinking for a short-run, intro game, but it's still that "urban fantasy"* genre.

I hope that didn't come off badly. I'm just trying to provide more info on what I'm looking to get out of the game, not shoot stuff down. If it sounds like I have a misinterpretation of Hunter, then I definitely want to know. I'm thankful for any input.

* By "urban fantasy", I mean supernatural stuff that is in the modern world, but isn't horror. I'm not looking to just move D&D to the modern world and hunt orcs, trolls, wyrmspawn, etc. I've heard the term applied to things like Dresden or Anita Blake and it seems to fit.

 

[Professor Phobos]

I think we're going to start with a hunters (not capitalized on purpose) game

That'll be well supported by the corebook. Hunter: The Vigil just came out and can be seen as a big honkin' supplement to the core mortals game, but if you're doing the "You know nothing about the supernatural, oh look now you are in a horror movie" game, the corebook is fine.

I'd love to do the chronicle in the Promethean books as something of a secondary introduction, since you don't need to worry about any deeper mythos than the single line. One player (who dealt the most with humanity loss and alternate moralities in the old Vampire) is rather concerned about the Prometheans being distinctly inhuman and is afraid the quest humanity will have a lot of similarities to stuff she doesn't care to revisit. Thoughts?

Somewhat similar in theme but very different in practice- still it sounds like that player would prefer to have a human character. In that case, I'd advise against Promethean, Vampire or Werewolf. Mage, Changeling and Hunter all deal with "normal or mostly normal" humans.

I'd also like to try Mage, since that was probably my favorite of the oWoD, but I hated the Technocracy and Ascension War. The new system looks really, really cleaned up. Still, old Mage was easily the most complex of the oWoD games, and I suspect that's true in nWoD. How is it in practice?

Somewhat more fiddly than the orginal system but very solid. The setting is completely different.

I've been eying Werewolf and Changeling, too. I hated the old Werewolf and pretty much banned them from my game (though I did allow a Pumonca), but what I've heard of the new backstory sounds much more interesting. Is the all-consuming Wyrm out of there? What's the core theme? Does the "inhumaness" concern of my player apply here?

No more wyrm. Werewolf is tough to describe- the product line is extremely good, but it spends a lot of time explaining what Werewolf is about and it isn't intuitive. The "inhumanness" problem is definitely present- the Uratha are straight-up "Not human." They don't think like humans. They have a lot of human traits, of course, enough to make them quite playable, but they are definitely not human.

How about Changeling? I know next to nothing about it, other than the PCs were actually snatched by fairies and escaped, have cool powers, aren't totally human anymore, and politics are important. I've heard it's an extremely good game, though. What's it like?

Friggin' awesome. It's gloriously dark, I can't open up any of the books without thinking of new characters I'd like to play, incredibly flexible, solid product line...it is the best thing WW has ever done. They hit it out of the park with nChangeling.

Changelings are also fairly human in mindset- just humans with their own unique set of psychological problems stemming from incredible trauma.

My end goal is to run something in the "urban fantasy" genre, like Harry Dresden, Supernatural, Moonlight, or Angel, with the PCs as clear heroes, but lots of magic and a hidden world. I don't mind some moral quandries, but no one wants the angst of frequent morality checks or inhuman behavior -- we're married, with kids, now. Dresden is probably the best match for what I'm wanting, but it doesn't matter if it revolves around wizards or not.

nMage is the closest to Dresden in feel and tone. I often find myself thinking about nMage after reading a Dresden Files book. nMage is also the least horror-centric of the games and the easiest to spin in an urban fantasy direction. There's plenty of horror available in Mage, but it can be sidelined without undermining the whole point of the game, whereas if you sidelined the horror in Hunter or Changeling or Vampire you'd really be losing a lot.

The Wisdom system is a bit harsh, morality wise, but Mages are in no way compelled to do evil things or innately comfortable with them. If you want to avoid lots of angst, it's easy to do.

 

[Professor Phobos]

* By "urban fantasy", I mean supernatural stuff that is in the modern world, but isn't horror. I'm not looking to just move D&D to the modern world and hunt orcs, trolls, wyrmspawn, etc. I've heard the term applied to things like Dresden or Anita Blake and it seems to fit.

Then you'll probably want to stick to the Mage-Changeling area. Both can do urban fantasy. It's tough to excise the horror from Changeling and horror is definitely available in Mage, but the two lines are very compatible and offer plenty of flexibility to do what you're looking for. Mage is actually the only WoD game not billed as horror right off the bat- it is a game of "Modern Sorcery."

Now that I think about it you could definitely tone down the darkness of Changeling; just diminish the omnipresent threat of Keeper recapture or, alternatively, make the Keepers somewhat less abusive. The setting would change if Changelings had genuinely positive feelings about their Durance, but you still have some leeway to make it a little less overwhelmingly traumatizing.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

My end goal is to run something in the "urban fantasy" genre, like Harry Dresden, Supernatural, Moonlight, or Angel, with the PCs as clear heroes, but lots of magic and a hidden world. I don't mind some moral quandries, but no one wants the angst of frequent morality checks or inhuman behavior -- we're married, with kids, now. Dresden is probably the best match for what I'm wanting, but it doesn't matter if it revolves around wizards or not.

Suggestions? Thoughts?

Mage: the Awakening is absolutely perfect for this. I can't recommend it enough.

Make sure you check out this thread. We discuss the game and I provide links for some good play aids for Mage newbies.

 

[Cryptos]

My group has decided it's time to do something other than D&D for a while (just need a change of pace) and we're looking at nWoD. I've got Vampire, Mage, and Promethean at my disposal, already, but I'm trying to figure out the best fit for my group.

I think we're going to start with a hunters (not capitalized on purpose) game and do a short run of that first, just because with no one but me knowing the implied setting, it'll be our one short at really evoking the right sense of mystery. None of us really think that's where we want to stay for long -- just a story or two -- but it's a good intro. The question, then, is "What's next?"

Vampire is out. Not because it's a bad game, but because that was what we played the most of in oWoD and the veterans are unanimous is wanting something different.

I'd love to do the chronicle in the Promethean books as something of a secondary introduction, since you don't need to worry about any deeper mythos than the single line. One player (who dealt the most with humanity loss and alternate moralities in the old Vampire) is rather concerned about the Prometheans being distinctly inhuman and is afraid the quest humanity will have a lot of similarities to stuff she doesn't care to revisit. Thoughts?

I'd say that you're probably right in thinking that Promethian's quest for humanity would seem like a familiar path for this player that dealt a lot with Humanity loss and morality systems and you'd be right to avoid it for that reason.

Depending on the characters played and the focus you choose, he'd probably actually have a better time playing Vampire the Requiem now than Promethian. Part of V:tR is that you're not going to get back your humanity. Golconda is considered a myth and there aren't any solid rules for it in the core of the game (and throughout most of its supplements.) You don't know where vampires came from - covenants either have alternate theories (which are probably all wrong) or just don't care - so mitigating the curse of Cain's children is out, also. The game itself doesn't even try to answer what Vampires really are in the way that oWoD did.

While V:tM was more about holding on to humanity, V:tR is more about trying to keep the Beast under control. You're a monster, deal with it, but don't let the monster have complete control. You'll never be human again. At best, the Ordo Dracul knows some tricks to make the Beast lay down and roll over, but they don't do it to try to become more human, but to master the essence of being a Vamp.

But Promethian is about trying to regain humanity, and it is spelled out in game terms. It's more Masquerade in many ways than Vampire: the Requiem is.

I'd also like to try Mage, since that was probably my favorite of the oWoD, but I hated the Technocracy and Ascension War. The new system looks really, really cleaned up. Still, old Mage was easily the most complex of the oWoD games, and I suspect that's true in nWoD. How is it in practice?

Well, there's no Ascension War per se and definately no Technocracy.

Instead, in a default Awakening setting, you'll be dealing with people who believe that Lost Atlantis is the 'homeland' for magic, even though none of them really know whether it ever existed or how, when and where it existed; as well as enemies who are primarily either (1) driven mad by magic; (2) think magic is evil and must be destroyed, even though they themselves are magical; or (3) think that magic must be strictly controlled and those that don't fall in line with the Exarchs must be eliminated.

But that's only if you want Mage vs. Mage antagonism. There's also plenty of coverage of Mage vs. Ghosts, Mage vs. Spirits, Mage vs. Astral beings, and Mage vs. Weird S***.

I'd say that Mage is no more or less complex than the other systems now, with the caveat that it still requires the most knowledge of the system from the players and ST to use it well. It's not any harder to understand Magic than it is to understand most other supernaturals, but it is still the most flexible and dynamic, and unless you make an effort to understand it, you'll be stuck using the effects described in the book.

There was a thread here last week about Mage, and several of us offered up cheat sheets and other tools for someone looking to run it. I put up my one-page summaries of (1) what mages can do, both in general and with certain Arcana and (2) what you can do with each dot in an Arcana; along with my version of Mage morality, which I feel is more morally intuitive and in line with the rest of the WoD.

So, in essence, it can still be the most complex but only if everyone doesn't make an effort to pick up the rules. If they bother to learn how to use magic, it's no more (or not much more) complicated than any other WoD system. But it's nowhere near as complicated as Ascension was compared to the other oWoD systems.

I've been eying Werewolf and Changeling, too. I hated the old Werewolf and pretty much banned them from my game (though I did allow a Pumonca), but what I've heard of the new backstory sounds much more interesting. Is the all-consuming Wyrm out of there? What's the core theme? Does the "inhumaness" concern of my player apply here?

How about Changeling? I know next to nothing about it, other than the PCs were actually snatched by fairies and escaped, have cool powers, aren't totally human anymore, and politics are important. I've heard it's an extremely good game, though. What's it like?

My end goal is to run something in the "urban fantasy" genre, like Harry Dresden, Supernatural, Moonlight, or Angel, with the PCs as clear heroes, but lots of magic and a hidden world. I don't mind some moral quandries, but no one wants the angst of frequent morality checks or inhuman behavior -- we're married, with kids, now. Dresden is probably the best match for what I'm wanting, but it doesn't matter if it revolves around wizards or not.

Suggestions? Thoughts?

Werewolf is probably the most like it's predecessor of all the nWoD books. There are differences, but it will still feel like "old" Werewolf.

Changeling is widely regarded as a fantastic game, but I have to be honest and say I haven't done that much with it.

If you're looking for Dresden, I'd say go with Mage. If you wanted to actually make a Dresden setting, with a few tweaks you could probably do so with Mage. If you're just looking for the feel in mood and theme of Dresden and don't mind the Mage cosmology and "history", Mage has already got the theme and mood of Dresden.

The best thing about New World of Darkness is that you've got to keep in mind that all of these origins, all of this history about "Father Wolf" and "Atlantis" and "Dracul" and "Longinus" is just a story. No one really knows. Mages can't prove there was an Atlantis. Werewolves have been howling about Father Wolf for centuries, but no one was really there at the dawn of time. No vampire is old enough, or old and sane enough, to remember how they came about.

You can change the metaplot and history and terminology however you like. Unlike oWod, they just don't matter all that much.

If you want to start out with a hunter-style (small 's') mortals game, probably the easiest way to get the PCs to get their supernatural freak on during the course of the game would be to have them Awaken to magic as they realize that the world isn't what they thought it was. Awakening is probably the easiest (and least damaging to core character concept) way to become supernatural. Werewolf would involve discovering that all the PCs are coincidentally descended from certain bloodlines. Vampire - well, you know this one, you've got to die. Changeling, your characters have to be abducted to Arcadia and off camera they're in slavery to the Fey until they are there long enough to change. Promethian, they all die and then their parts are stitched together with lots of other dead people's parts, and they're not that person any more. Mortal character to Promethian character conversion would be downright destructive, it's just not built for that sort of game.

Mage is the least damaging to an existing character in terms of becoming supernatural during the game.

If you're looking for more online discussion of WoD, I'd recommend www.shadownessence.com. They're more like the ENWorld of WoD. They tend to be friendlier, more helpful, and more openminded than the people on the official forums at White Wolf's site. If you were to want to discuss an alternate way of doing something on WW's site, you're going to get flamed. On S-n-E, they're more likely to consider the merits of the idea on its own than to tear it down to protect some perceived canon. I sometimes think the best PR move that White Wolf could do is to get rid of their official forums. It's not generally a happy place for newcomers.

 

[Sysbase]

nWod is pretty fun. Good luck it's always good to switch things up!

 

[Mercule]

Thanks for all the input, guys. Mage and Changeling are really starting to sound like the best bets. But, that begs another question: How well do the nWoD games blend?

Promethean obviously doesn't really work with anything else, due to the Disquiet, and Vampires are going to be sitting out half the time, but what about the rest? My experience with oWoD was that trying to mix and match tended to really hose things up -- the mythoi and themes were too disjointed. The only time things worked out well was when I let one person play a Pumonca in a Mage campaign (worked awesome, btw).

Would nMage and nChangeling work well together? Would I have to say "this is a Mage (or whatever) game, but Changeling PCs are allowed" or could I just let them have at it?

What about picks from other games? Anything that should be avoided (oVampire + oWerewolf)? Could a single mortal work in an otherwise supernatural game, or would the character just be Xander?

Something I'd toyed with, just before we left oWoD for D&D, was to try a dedicated, mixed awakenings game. The basic idea is that the PCs all started as normal mortals, and awakened in a semi-isolated area, under stress (airplane hijacking, hostages in a hotel, etc.). Basically, the Lost set-up, but without the island. Let everyone pick their "race" and they stick together because of the trauma and the sense that they can trust each other more than either the mortals or the crazy, older supernaturals. A mage might get a bit of backstory involving (very little) independent study, but everyone else is totally green.

Would that work with nWoD, or would it dilute the flavor of each line too much (which was my big fear with oWoD)?

In short, as someone who has run a fair amount of oWoD (though not for several years) and is a experienced GM over all, and wanting something that could work well without having to go through plausability contortions and plot fiat, I'm wondering what's reasonable: single "breed", single "breed" plus mortal(s), two "breeds" (+ mortals), or wide open.

Also, if it's wide open, I can pretty well bet on one Werewolf and one Mage, with a fair chance of at least one Changeling, another Mage, and a Mortal/Hunter. I don't see anyone choosing a Promethean in a mixed game or a Vampire. Is that a disfunctional mix?