Obtain Familiar and warrior/mage PrC's

[moritheil]

The problem would not have been solved by saying "Your level for purposes of familiar advancement is your caster level" because of the Practiced Spellcaster feat.

Why not? That would mean that Practiced Spellcaster advances the familiar as well. How is it a problem?

The feat has 'bard' written all over it.

And beguiler, and duskblade, and all the class variants that give up the familiar to get something. That's just the core classes, of course.

To me the situation doesn't 'feel' right. The familiar is getting lots of benefits from its master being a spellsword, notably twice the number of hit points and two good saves. It is already much better than a wizard's familiar of the same level, even without the extra few abilities. And that familiar is going to be a pain in my neck. It's a bat in the underdark, the perfect scout plus a mobile invisibility detector. I don't think the player realizes how unkillable the familiar already is, even with only 6th level abilities. I do think the feat's too powerful just for the fact that the group will never be ambushed as long as the player tells the familiar to scout ahead. Hide checks don't mean anything against the bat's blindsense. And this familiar needs more AC plus spell resistance, even with almost 50 HP, improved evasion, and flight speed 40?

I don't think you realize how easy it is to kill a familiar that is used for direct combat. Familiars are meant to be hard to kill as long as the player isn't using them for combat purposes . . . if being a fighter/mage means that suddenly the familiar can hold its own for a bit, that's a bonus. I still can't see this familiar solo tanking a dragon of the party's EL, or anything. It has no credible damage output.

And now for specific advice: If you're having trouble with the bat's blindsense, you should have plot-important assassins get Darkstalker from LoM. It basically negates the ability. As an alternative, you can have everything upset the bat emotionally - it's a tiny creature and anything bigger than it can register as a threat. The owner only gets emotional states. After the 40th false alarm and wasted buff spell, he'll learn that the bat is not the be-all, end-all answer to ambushes in the underdark.

 

[Urbannen]

I don't think anyone in my group is foolish enough to have a normal familiar attack in combat. Obviously the bat familiar will be hovering about while the spellsword is in combat, but the only attacks that it would be affected by would be AoE attacks. The familiar has improved evasion and enough hit points to survive two AoEs even with failed saves. (When you're being targeted with AoEs is normally when you have your familiar run away.) The enemy would have to know this character very well indeed before targeting his bat familiar.

If you want your familiar to attack in combat you take the Improved Familiar feat, which is a whole other question.

The only time the familiar has been used in combat is when the party knew that there was an invisible wizard present. The familiar can move 80 fts in one round and alert the spellsword through the empathic link when he senses an invisible creature with his 20 ft radius blindsense. He quickly located the wizard.

And now for specific advice: If you're having trouble with the bat's blindsense, you should have plot-important assassins get Darkstalker from LoM. It basically negates the ability. As an alternative, you can have everything upset the bat emotionally - it's a tiny creature and anything bigger than it can register as a threat. The owner only gets emotional states. After the 40th false alarm and wasted buff spell, he'll learn that the bat is not the be-all, end-all answer to ambushes in the underdark.

There are two problems with this.
1. I don't know what LoM is. I only take NPC options from the core D&D books and a certain number of FR books, which I own.
2. I don't want to nerf the abilities of the NPCs just to teach them a lesson. I believe in limited in-game options so the players can accurately judge the value of their choices. The bat is on the approved list of familiars, so he can take the bat, which is a very excellent choice. However, Obtain Familiar is not on the pre-approved list of options, so I can veto it.
3. Right now the Familiar has an Int of 8 and the same knowledge as the spellsword. He's not going to make any major misjudgments of threats ,and the spellsword will likely wait to get a full report via speak with familiar once the familiar returns from scouting.

Why not? That would mean that Practiced Spellcaster advances the familiar as well. How is it a problem?

It doesn't go along with the other examples of familiar advancement in the game. And I prefer single-classing, which is now the exception rather than the rule. Familiar advancement is one of the few rewards for single-classing as a wizard or sorcerer. And familiars of pure arcane spellcasters need to be tougher because their masters are feeble. With the spellswords hit points, that is not the case here.

And if you want an example of how this scenario doesn't fit with familiar advancement in other classes, look at the hexblade. The hexblade's familiar's advancement is specifically tied to spellcasting ability (or potential spellcasting ability). It is not even tied to caster level. In theory a singe-class 6th level hexblade could take the Obtain Familiar feat and add 3 to his familiar's level. ?!?

Now why would a character who already can already summon a familiar take a feat called Obtain Familiar? He tells his friends: "I've learned how to Obtain a Familiar". Friends: "But you already have Slinky." Hexblade: "Yeah, but I only summoned him before. Now I've Obtained him." Friends: "And what third party sourcebook did you find that feat in ?"

 

[sukael]

I don't think anyone in my group is foolish enough to have a normal familiar attack in combat. Obviously the bat familiar will be hovering about while the spellsword is in combat, but the only attacks that it would be affected by would be AoE attacks. The familiar has improved evasion and enough hit points to survive two AoEs even with failed saves. (When you're being targeted with AoEs is normally when you have your familiar run away.) The enemy would have to know this character very well indeed before targeting his bat familiar.

If I saw somebody casting spells, I think any animals staying suspiciously close to combats - the normal reaction here would be just to run away, remember - would get added to my secondary targets list.

Depending on the level of the enemy spellcasters (and how many extra spells they have to burn), a single ray of enfeeblement should drop the bat to Str 0, at which time somebody steps on it nice and hard (eg. coup de grace).

 

[Hypersmurf]

In theory a singe-class 6th level hexblade could take the Obtain Familiar feat and add 3 to his familiar's level. ?!?

Right.

Like a single-class 6th level Ranger could take the Natural Bond feat and add 3 to his Animal Companion level.

... where's the problem?

Now why would a character who already can already summon a familiar take a feat called Obtain Familiar? He tells his friends: "I've learned how to Obtain a Familiar".

Why would a character know the name of the feat?

The character might say "I have learned mysteries that allow me to converse with Slinky". He wouldn't say "I've learned how to Obtain a Familiar".

The monk knocks a javelin from the air. "How did you do that?" asks the fighter. "I know how to Deflect Arrows", says the monk. "But that was a javelin!" says the fighter. "... good point," says the monk.

The name of the feat exists in the metagame, and doesn't always describe the mechanics exactly.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

... a single ray of enfeeblement should drop the bat to Str 0...

"The subject's Strength score cannot drop below 1..."

-Hyp.

 

[sukael]

"The subject's Strength score cannot drop below 1..."

-Hyp.

Hahah, whups. Well, I'm sure there are other low-level spells that could do the same kind of thing, given how low the bat's Str and Cha scores will be.

Oh, and the earthbind spell (Draconomicon, Spell Compendium, and probably a few other books) would shut down that 40-ft. fly speed pretty good, leaving the bat as a fairly easy target for anyone who might want to attack it normally and has a surfeit of attacks (an archer or two, say).

 

[moritheil]

I don't think anyone in my group is foolish enough to have a normal familiar attack in combat. Obviously the bat familiar will be hovering about while the spellsword is in combat, but the only attacks that it would be affected by would be AoE attacks. The familiar has improved evasion and enough hit points to survive two AoEs even with failed saves. (When you're being targeted with AoEs is normally when you have your familiar run away.) The enemy would have to know this character very well indeed before targeting his bat familiar.

If you want your familiar to attack in combat you take the Improved Familiar feat, which is a whole other question.

So we are in agreement that the familiar is not a credible combat threat.

The only time the familiar has been used in combat is when the party knew that there was an invisible wizard present. The familiar can move 80 fts in one round and alert the spellsword through the empathic link when he senses an invisible creature with his 20 ft radius blindsense. He quickly located the wizard.

Was this any worse than someone spending resources on getting a high enough spot/listen to notice and pinpoint invisible creatures?

There are two problems with this.
1. I don't know what LoM is. I only take NPC options from the core D&D books and a certain number of FR books, which I own.

This information would have been helpful earlier. Lords of Madness is a splatbook.

2. I don't want to nerf the abilities of the NPCs just to teach them a lesson. I believe in limited in-game options so the players can accurately judge the value of their choices. The bat is on the approved list of familiars, so he can take the bat, which is a very excellent choice. However, Obtain Familiar is not on the pre-approved list of options, so I can veto it.

In no way is this a nerf; it comes with the territory to begin with. It is included where familiars are introduced. It was always listed as a limitation of familiars; if you as a DM have not underlined that limitation, that's your own play style.

3. Right now the Familiar has an Int of 8 and the same knowledge as the spellsword. He's not going to make any major misjudgments of threats ,and the spellsword will likely wait to get a full report via speak with familiar once the familiar returns from scouting.

I'm not talking about the bat's analytical capacity; I'm talking about powerful emotions. If it's true that humans who should know better often wind up afraid anyhow, it's doubly true for animals that have fear ingrained in them at a deeper level.


In any case, it sounds like this feat simply does not sit well with you. You seem to feel strongly about that. In that case, just veto it and move on.

 

[Urbannen]

Let me just say that if you were facing this party in combat, there is no way that you would focus your attacks on some bat flying around. I can't imagine a time when the enemy would go after the bat, and even if they did, it currently has 41 hp and can fly. No missile attack could take him down through damage alone (although drow poison might do it). And since I don't think every WotC splatbook is canon, there are no "earthbind" spells available for me to vent my ire with.

And when I say "nerf his special ability", what I mean is that I'm not going to go out of my way to give enemies special ways of avoiding blindsense just so I can nerf the bat's abilities because I want to punish the player for messing up my plan.

Essentially, there is a difference of philosophy here. My vision of the game design is that only spellcasters can get familiars (or animal companions), not non-spellcasters. The published classes I've seen with these abilities support this vision. I consider any class level that doesn't grant spellcasting as an example of a non-spellcaster: Hexblade 1-3, Ranger 1-3, Spellsword 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, etc. If someone knows of a published WotC class that grants a familiar or animal companion for non-spellcasting class levels, please let me know!

To grant familiar (or animal companion) benefits to non-spellcasting class levels is a big shift in game philosophy, IMO, and this change is not even explicitly commented on in the feat. I see no reason to change this basic design. VETO familiar improvement from non-spellcasting levels. /edit/ But the feat itself is otherwise OK and would work fine for bards and pure arcane-casting PrCs.

 

[sukael]

Let me just say that if you were facing this party in combat, there is no way that you would focus your attacks on some bat flying around.

A bat flying around in the middle of a combat... and particularly with underdark races, I doubt "bat familiar used as a scout" would be a new and innovative technique. The simple fact that it doesn't die immediately when caught in the blast radius of a fireball or other area attack aimed at the PCs would be an obvious giveaway, too.

For an example off the top of my head, a 6th-level drow ranger with Str 18 and Dex 18 (odd, but quite doable with proper magical support) and a +1 composite longbow (Str +4) could do 3 attacks per round at +9/+9/+4 (1d8+5). Even with AC 19 (16 +3 natural), either of the +9 attacks would have a 50/50 chance of hitting... and with a few arrows of magical beast bane*, that goes up to +11 (1d8+2d6+5). At an average of 16 damage, it'll only take 3 arrows (on average) to kill the familiar.

Or, ditch the bane bolts and use a dose of medium spider venom (DC 14, 1d4 Str/1d4 Str) for 150 gp.

The odds actually go up in favor of the enemies here the weaker the enemies are, because then there are a bunch more archers (and even more extra attacks to use on not-immediately-important targets like the snoopy familiar).

In any case, there are plenty of ways for smart enemies with the proper equipment (and I'd be really surprised to see drow, or underdark creatures that associate with them, without any poisons) to get rid of a creature that could potentially be snooping for the enemy, even with a single attack.

* At effectively 40 gp each, I'd expect a fair number of archers to have a smattering of bane arrows of different types.

 

[sukael]

Essentially, there is a difference of philosophy here. My vision of the game design is that only spellcasters can get familiars (or animal companions), not non-spellcasters. The published classes I've seen with these abilities support this vision.

Incidentally, the Beast Heart Adept class in Dungeonscape gives multiple monstrous companions (like animal companions, except they're magical beasts or aberrations) without requiring or advancing spellcasting, and Beastmaster in Complete Adventurer gives multiple animal companions without requiring or advancing spellcasting.