Odd but legal?

[James McMurray]

And this goes back to the zombie/skeleton axe/mace example.

If both of these are permissible:

1. Primary attack with longsword vs zombie; off-hand attack with handaxe vs zombie.
2. Primary attack with longsword vs zombie; drop handaxe; quick draw mace; 5' step; off-hand attack with mace vs skeleton.

... then 'seeking openings' is something that can be done throughout the course of the full attack action. The fact that my off-hand weapon has changed during the round doesn't matter - I have an off-hand weapon when I wish to make an off-hand attack.

If you disagree that scenario 2 is legal (since the off-hand weapon is not the one I started with), then absolutely, it is not feasible to make both attacks with the longsword.

The rules require your offhand attack to be with the weapon that was in your off hand when you started attacking. 2 is technically illegal. I personally would allow it, because it doesn't break what I consider to be the underlying idea of two weapon fighting. But that doesn't mean I'd allow a single weapon to be used for TWF.

 

[James McMurray]

That's how many attacks he can make with a bow?

-Hyp.

No, it's how many attacks he can make with thrown weapons using two weapon fighting. Assuming he has no bow feats, he gets 2 iterative attacks only.

 

[Hypersmurf]

No, it's how many attacks he can make with thrown weapons using two weapon fighting. Assuming he has no bow feats, he gets 2 iterative attacks only.

But if Quick Draw lets him make a number of attacks as if he were a character using a bow, isn't that two, not four?

And if Two Weapon Fighting technically requires you to use the same off-hand weapon for all off-hand attacks, how does Quick Draw (which refers to a bow, not Two-Weapon Fighting) overrule this for an off-hand dagger that's different to your other off-hand dagger?

-Hyp.

 

[James McMurray]

It doesn't say he gets the same number of attacks as a bow user. It says he gets his full allotment of attacks with a ranged weapon, much like a bow user. It's talking about thrown weapons not giving full attacks at range but bows allowing them. Quick draw gives full attacks at range, much like a bow would.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It doesn't say he gets the same number of attacks as a bow user. It says he gets his full allotment of attacks with a ranged weapon, much like a bow user. It's talking about thrown weapons not giving full attacks at range but bows allowing them. Quick draw gives full attacks at range, much like a bow would.

But are off-hand attacks part of his 'full normal rate'? Or are they additional attacks not covered by that phrase?

Bows allow full attacks at range; so does Quick Draw. But Quick Draw says nothing about superceding a requirement for an off-hand weapon to remain consistent throughout that full attack. You can still throw as many daggers as a bowman could shoot arrows... plus one, even, if you already had one dagger in your off-hand.

-Hyp.

 

[UnsocialEntity]

I definately see what Mr. Smurf is getting at with the way quick draw/two weapon fighting/thrown weapons interacts. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find any specific rule that states two weapon fighting works with thrown weapons. Everyone seems to "know" it works, but where does the rule originate? I'd like to see if it has something that states how it gets around the normal rules.

If there are no exceptions, i'd say the rules break down and just don't actually work for throwing weapons with two weapon fighting. I'd still stick with saying you can't do the crazy "shift a weapon for dual wielding" combo.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I definately see what Mr. Smurf is getting at with the way quick draw/two weapon fighting/thrown weapons interacts. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find any specific rule that states two weapon fighting works with thrown weapons. Everyone seems to "know" it works, but where does the rule originate? I'd like to see if it has something that states how it gets around the normal rules.

Two Weapon Fighting works fine... it's Improved Two Weapon Fighting where the problem arises...

... if one assumes that "the second weapon" is immutably fixed at the start of a full attack action, rather than referring to whatever second weapon happens to be in your off-hand right now.

-Hyp.

 

[James McMurray]

Luckily for us, providing official answers to rules questions are what the FAQ was created for.

Can I throw weapons with both hands? What happens
if I also use Rapid Shot?

The two-weapon fighting rules allow you to use thrown
weapons in both hands. As described on page 160 in the
Player’s Handbook, a dart or a shuriken is treated as a light
weapon for the purpose of two-weapon fighting, while bolas,
javelins, nets, or slings are treated as one-handed weapons. For
other thrown weapons, compare the weapon’s weight to those
listed here. Generally, a thrown weapon that weighs less than 1
pound (at Medium size) is effectively a light weapon for this
purpose. Weapons already defined as light weapons are also
considered light.

As long as you can draw additional thrown weapons as a
free action (such as from the Quick Draw feat), there’s no
reason you can’t also use the Rapid Shot feat to get an extra
throw with your primary hand. For example, if a 4th-level
fighter has Quick Draw, Rapid Shot, and Two-Weapon
Fighting, he can throw two daggers with his primary hand and
a third with his off hand. His adjusted base attack bonus is +0
with each dagger (+4 base attack bonus, –2 for using a light
weapon in his off hand, –2 for using Rapid Shot).

 

[Hypersmurf]

Luckily for us, providing official answers to rules questions are what the FAQ was created for.

Notice he only throws one with his off-hand. THe FAQ answer doesn't address whether or not your ITWF attack can be with a second weapon wielded in your off-hand that isn't the same second weapon wielded in your off-hand as the second weapon wielded in your off-hand that you used for the first off-hand attack.

-Hyp.

 

[James McMurray]

Right, you're expected to be able to extrapolate. To not be afraid to apply your brain rather then require an airtight rulebook in legalese.

But whether or not it works with thrown weapons doesn't impact the scenario of changing hands with a single weapon, which quite explicitly doesn't work.