Official responses to 1 min/level Buff spells

The point is that the power of the buff spells were never in the power of the spell itself, but were nearly all concentrated in the duration .

Without the 1 hour/level duration, they are just not competitive with other short buff spells. 1 hour/level was probably excessive, but 10 mins/level was a useful for a group of encounters without lasting all day.

Defensively speaking, for example, the wizard was almost always better off preparing Mirror Image compared with Cat's Grace or Endurance. He would gain peripheral benefits from CG or End, but in terms of 'survivability', unless facing multiple wizards, it was not a realistic choice. Mirror Image, which provides (at 3rd level) an average 3.5 extra images, effectively saves the fighter from roughly two successful attacks. Unless the two successful attacks are doing a combined damage of three hit points or fewer, the wizard is better off with MI over End. Unless the players receives four successful attacks hitting on 17s, or equivalent (which, in a one-to-one combat takes an average twenty combat rounds, almost certainly longer than the new duration of CG in practical terms), MI is better than CG for defense. Mage Armour is patently superior to CG for defense; as is Shield.

In terms of offensive buffs, BS is now superseded by boom-spells in terms of damage output. Though it's hard to measure precisely how much extra damage BS is going to provide, since it depends on so many factors such as iterative attacks, enemy AC, charge, feats etc., it's going to be hard-pressed to match the effective 35 damage cap for MAA, unless the party is using a 'Go! Go! Before the buff runs out!' attitude to dungeon-crawling. In wilderness encounters, it's almost a non-starter. Flaming Sphere is almost certainly going to get a better damage output per round, unless the Reflex saves are absurd or, once again, the 'Go! Go!' attitude to adventuring is adopted.

Re the mental buffs, their main utility was clearly that of DC boosting. Is the DC boost now competitive with other direct-damage spells? Unlikely until very high levels, when stat-boosting items are far more the norm. The damage output of just simply another direct-damage spell was likely to supersede that of the spell, unless the enemies have very good saves, or the wizard is very high level or has very high DCs indeed.

The animal buffs are still useful. They will still get routinely cast before end-boss rooms. But then so will Displacement, Fly, Mirror Image, Aid, etc. etc. The point of buffs is that you precast them. If you precast them daily, so what? You also precast Mage Armour, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment and others. At 1 min/level, the animal buffs are probably not worth 2nd level- or if they are, they're certainly at the weaker end.
 

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I agree with most of the analysis except the last part. IME, there is rarely a sign outside the final encounter door that says "BBEG inside, buff up before entering." And even when there might as well be such a sign, the party has usually spent a significant portion of their resources getting there. Thus PCs can't afford to prepare spells that don't pull their own weight in the hope that they will be able to cast them before the final BBEG encounter and it won't matter that the spells suck because 1. they stack and 2. They don't have any other use for those slots anyway.

Spells that have worthwhile effects for their level will be cast. Mirror Image, Displacement, Shield, Bless, Shield of Faith, Remove Fear, False Life. Spells that don't have such effects won't be cast. I suspect that Aid is a good measure of the power of a 1 min/level animal buff--I've only seen the spell cast once and, after that the cleric's player said "that was dumb of me; I should have done something useful...."

By the time the opportunity cost of a second level slot is next to nil (level 11+), the benefit of an animal buff will be almost entirely superceded by statbuff items in any campaign close to normal wealth levels.

Al said:
The animal buffs are still useful. They will still get routinely cast before end-boss rooms. But then so will Displacement, Fly, Mirror Image, Aid, etc. etc. The point of buffs is that you precast them. If you precast them daily, so what? You also precast Mage Armour, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment and others. At 1 min/level, the animal buffs are probably not worth 2nd level- or if they are, they're certainly at the weaker end.
 

JLXC said:
Spells on every member of the party should not be a requirement 24/7. I dunno, but knowing my players were the MOST upset about the buff spells over anything else in 3.5 is enough to show me what a problem there really was with them. That and every morning my party would cast buff spells out of every hole, using fully 1/3 their spells or more every day and feeling like they should never even try adventuring unless those spells were in place.

If I ever attacked them without the buff spells running I was "trying to kill them." Yep, buff spells were just silly for 2nd level as is.

I completely agree. Been more than enough whining on the subject. When a mere 2nd level spell becomes the be-all and end-all of the game, it's not a 2nd level spell.
 

maybe its me, but i think i have seen more "whining" about the DR system when it was announced, the haste spell when it was announced, and so on than I have about the buffs.

they are getting more whining now because they are one of the most recent announcements.

personally i liked the choice of using items or spells from 3e. The 3.5 designer decision to remove the one choice seems wrong. i prefer it when the characters gains are more rooted in their characters abilities than their equipment. I love it when the fighter walks out of a tough fight and thanks the mage for his extra strength spell rather caressing his "precious" gauntlets.

YMMV and clearly theirs does.
 

I think it will ultimately be decided after a few months of 3.5. At an hour/level, the buff spells were probably used much more on average that other spells. At 1 min/level, they probably will not be used much at all. They went from one extreme (that IMO wasn't out of balance) to another. They say they wanted player choice. Well, before there was the choice of using the buff spells to good advantage or not. Now there is no choice. You pick a better spell and go buy yourself a stat-boosting item!
 

Petrosian said:
maybe its me, but i think i have seen more "whining" about the DR system when it was announced, the haste spell when it was announced, and so on than I have about the buffs.

they are getting more whining now because they are one of the most recent announcements.

personally i liked the choice of using items or spells from 3e. The 3.5 designer decision to remove the one choice seems wrong. i prefer it when the characters gains are more rooted in their characters abilities than their equipment. I love it when the fighter walks out of a tough fight and thanks the mage for his extra strength spell rather caressing his "precious" gauntlets.

YMMV and clearly theirs does.
You still have that choice. You might need a wand, but you still have the choice. In any case, you might want to try Monte Cook's "Mark of *element*" spells. Thye last for 1 hour per level, but only give +2.
 

The thing is with 1/min per level spells

Hi there

The only issue I see with the 1 min/level spells is that there are so many of them

I play a cleric.. and I never get to cast more then two of my 1 min/level spells before a combat.

And now that I have to chose between keeping my self safe (Shield of Faith) or buffing the fighter.. well you see where I am going with this.

Overall I think taking some of the buff spells down to 1 min/level will brakedown teamwork between spell casters and fighter types.

Untill its time for spellcasters to make magical items that is.


Peter B
 

I'll still cast them...heck, I never did before. I have a 5th level Living Greyhawk cleric. I never memorized any of the buffs because there was a chance I'd roll 1 and give one character +1 to hit and damage or I can cast bless to give everyone +1 to hit. At least with the new version I know that the person I give the bonus to will get +2 to hit and +3 damage (due to two handed weapon)
 

It would have been nice to see them drop the spells to 1st level spells considering the duration, and possibly allow a higher level version that is a 24 hour duration (maybe 5th or 6th level).
 


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