D&D 5E Ok all, I just cannot wrap my head around how combat works. Please Help.

[TwoSix]

Having said that, WOTC really did give 5E away for free, so "Kudos" to them on that.

To be honest, since those documents are "living" documents hosted on their web site, there's zero reason not to take your and others' solid advice and add some pages like that to the Starter Set PHB.

 

[jrowland]

*someone* could one-up WotC and provide an "Example of Play", using the pregens from the starter set, and make it available here on ENWORLD, and incorporate the very things Painted_Klown was having issues with.

 

[aramis erak]

Character creation is by far the most complex part of the game, and it absolutely made sense to omit this. Amazon.co.uk is full of people saying "wahh, it isn't a starter set, because you can't create characters!", but really they're missing the point: to get started you're best off playing with pre-gens and then do character creation when you know what those choices mean. These complaints seem to be coming from experienced role-players who haven't considered that the box set is for everyone, including newcomers to RPGs.

All the effort is front-loaded in 5e - it takes a lot of time to create a character (until you're au-fair with the system); once these details are on your character sheet the game is really easy to play, but you do need to do all the planning and calculations first. This is not OD&D or the old Basic set, where you essentially just roll six stats and go.

For total newcomers (or people coming back after 30 years' absence), having character creation before play would only guarantee that most of them wouldn't even get to the part where they actually play the game, and then they're lost to the system, and probably to future editions, if not roleplaying altogether. Having an adventure that hand-holds new DMs and players through the game was the right way to go (whether the included adventure booklet does a good job of this is a different matter).

Also, including character creation rules would hugely bump the page count, making the (already quite large) rulebook look even more intimidating.

The same types of complaints exist for the FFG Star Wars basic sets. The same issues explain why the basic sets are pregen based.

 

[Zak S]

Character creation is by far the most complicated part of the game.

Sure but that doesn't mean it isn't fun in itself plus a good pre-intro to the system.

Or couldn't be made that way with the right presentation.

I mean: in Call of Cthulhu, during the relatively long character gen process you _learn about your character_ and that makes you excited to play that character. Plus you go "Oh, Shotgun 35%--I guess that's how good I am with a shotgun".

Probably either way could work if the book just really dedicated graphic design resources to making a fun intro by stages.

 

[Grainger]

Sure but that doesn't mean it isn't fun in itself plus a good pre-intro to the system.

Or couldn't be made that way with the right presentation.

I mean: in Call of Cthulhu, during the relatively long character gen process you _learn about your character_ and that makes you excited to play that character. Plus you go "Oh, Shotgun 35%--I guess that's how good I am with a shotgun".

Probably either way could work if the book just really dedicated graphic design resources to making a fun intro by stages.

But the idea is that players don't need to read the rules upfront (or at least not in any detail) - they can just grab a character sheet and jump into the game. The DM guides them through their first game - then they can get the PHB, or use the free Basic rules online. If the entire group had to fumble around with character generation in their first game... that might work for seasoned gamers, but it's going to be a recipe for disaster for many groups of newcomers.

Besides, I don't see what other material (game systems) the D&D team could have cut from the intro set to make room for guided character creation for five different character classes (assuming of course you want to keep the overall page count the same, which I imagine was a significant goal of the set).

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one!

 

[Agamon]

Exactly my thoughts as well. This season of TableTop, especially, has been really good in that regard (although they do play some bloody strange games).

I hate going off-topic, but I wonder which games you find strange? I admit, I haven't watched any of S3, but scanning the list here, I don't see anything too unusual, aside perhaps for Cards Against Humanity. A lot of light games, co-ops, and fluffy fillers, as per usual. I'm really looking forward to the Dread episode, though. The Fiasco episodes from last season were great.

 

[Dausuul]

Reading this thread got me thinking back on my own experiences with novice gamers. I have often seen this same tendency to make things way more complicated than they need to be, and that has brought me to a revelation.

We're apt to think of "prefab" statblocks (where attack bonus, damage values, and so forth are all pre-calculated and presented in their final form) as ideal for newbie players and DMs. Veteran gamers want the complicated details of how all that stuff is computed; newbies need to be shielded from the nitty gritty.

But this is exactly backward! Newbies are the ones who need to have the process explained in detail. They need to be able to see where the numbers are coming from. We veterans, on the other hand, can look at a statblock that says "Longsword: +7 to hit, 1d8+4 damage," scan down to the ability scores for Strength 16 and the equipment list for a +1 longsword, and break it down into "+3 Strength mod, +1 enhancement, +3 proficiency bonus." For us, it's convenient to have everything presented in a minimalist form. Give us the final numbers, and we'll reverse-engineer the details on the rare occasions that we need them. The rest of the time, we'll just roll to hit and damage and carry on.

I suspect the main reason we get it wrong is impatience on the part of veterans. We watch a new player carefully check which stat to use for an attack, add that stat mod to the d20 roll and then pause to look up his proficiency bonus, and then do it all over again for the second attack, and wish he'd just tot up his total attack bonus, write it in big numbers on his character sheet like everyone else does, and quit wasting everyone's time. What we have to remember is that the newbie is learning as well as playing. Reading the rules is no substitute for using them at the table. Once the newbie gets a handle on how everything fits together, he can start taking shortcuts.

 

[Tormyr]

Reading this thread got me thinking back on my own experiences with novice gamers. I have often seen this same tendency to make things way more complicated than they need to be, and that has brought me to a revelation.

We're apt to think of "prefab" statblocks (where attack bonus, damage values, and so forth are all pre-calculated and presented in their final form) as ideal for newbie players and DMs. Veteran gamers want the complicated details of how all that stuff is computed; newbies need to be shielded from the nitty gritty.

But this is exactly backward! Newbies are the ones who need to have the process explained in detail. They need to be able to see where the numbers are coming from. We veterans, on the other hand, can look at a statblock that says "Longsword: +7 to hit, 1d8+4 damage," scan down to the ability scores for Strength 16 and the equipment list for a +1 longsword, and break it down into "+3 Strength mod, +1 enhancement, +3 proficiency bonus." For us, it's convenient to have everything presented in a minimalist form. Give us the final numbers, and we'll reverse-engineer the details on the rare occasions that we need them. The rest of the time, we'll just roll to hit and damage and carry on.

I suspect the main reason we get it wrong is impatience on the part of veterans. We watch a new player carefully check which stat to use for an attack, add that stat mod to the d20 roll and then pause to look up his proficiency bonus, and then do it all over again for the second attack, and wish he'd just tot up his total attack bonus, write it in big numbers on his character sheet like everyone else does, and quit wasting everyone's time. What we have to remember is that the newbie is learning as well as playing. Reading the rules is no substitute for using them at the table. Once the newbie gets a handle on how everything fits together, he can start taking shortcuts.

This was how my high school calculus teacher taught us. We had to learn the hard "proof" way, and then we learned the fast way. As for new players, I agree that they should have an understanding of how the numbers on the character sheet are calculated, but the character sheet itself should always provide only 1 number to add to a d20 roll. My 2cp.

 

[Nebulous]

I'm so jaded now with years of games that I honestly don't know what it would be like as a newbie to look at the 5th edition combat chapter and try to absorb it. I just recall the THAC0 charts of yesteryear, but even that is just a vague memory. I had nothing to compare it to, it was just *D&D* and that's all there was to it. We liked it. Since then I've learned how clunky it was....

 

[Grainger]

Newbies are the ones who need to have the process explained in detail. They need to be able to see where the numbers are coming from. We veterans, on the other hand, can look at a statblock that says "Longsword: +7 to hit, 1d8+4 damage," scan down to the ability scores for Strength 16 and the equipment list for a +1 longsword, and break it down into "+3 Strength mod, +1 enhancement, +3 proficiency bonus." For us, it's convenient to have everything presented in a minimalist form. Give us the final numbers, and we'll reverse-engineer the details on the rare occasions that we need them. The rest of the time, we'll just roll to hit and damage and carry on.

Edit: scrub that. Post deleted; misunderstood the focus of your point!