"OK. Make a Will Save." POOF! Go the Fighter and Rogue

[James McMurray]

What? you mean the ones that dont exist?

Huh?

What I mean is that if you start as a barbarian and change to monk, you'll lose the ability to rage (a rather cool ability). If you start as a monk and change to barbarian, you'll lose the baility to gain more monk levels (and thus more monk abilities such as Diamond Bosy, Improved Evasion, etc.).

 

[Plane Sailing]

I actually like the idea of starting a character as a Bard, and then after a level or two he "recieves the call" and becomes a Paladin. Changing alignment to Lawful, he can't progress in Bard any more, but he is great at inspiring speeches to the troops! He could be called the Choirmaster

 

[nopantsyet]

In DnD, PCs are expected to work as a team.

Second that. The character deaths in my campaign have all been a direct result of poor combat support. One or more characters were not contributing to the cause in an effective way. That's the challenge of all of the options 3E gives you--sometimes you're the man for the job, other times, you've got to think and work hard to figure out how to help your party stay alive.

 

[Roland Delacroix]

Fighter/Bard-Anyone who wastes XP in Bard is gonna die

So you see billy, being a fighter is about gaining a bunch of weapon proficiencies and making any class more butkickey.

Thanks for bringing this up, I was gonna suggest a few levels of Bard, or getting a Bard in the party. The +2 to saves Bards give is as good as Iron Will vs Charms and Fear, and stacks with it too.

To adress your supposition real quick, i'm sorry but IMO 4 levels of Bard can be as usefull as 4 levels of Fighter. If a fighter spreads out his Bard levels to get 12 ranks in Perform he can use all the Bardic music 4 times a day, and the Extra Bardic Music feat is a good choice with so many feats. That means the Fighter can the use Inspire Courage to bolster the PARTY's Charm and Fear saves, plus give him and the rest of the party +1 to hit and damage. Small potatoes? Maybe, but it does mean more hits and more criticals, you basically gave the entire party a multi Weapon Focus, 1/2 a Weapon Specialization, and a partial Iron Will.

The ability to give the party Barbarian another 2 hit dice and further bonus to hit and saves with Inspire Greatness is pretty usefull too. Even better, if you are like my party you get sick of the rogue you are flanking with running away after he gets hit once. Keep that mega damage coming by Inspiring Greatness in the rogue so he sticks around longer and gets that +5d6 damage more often with +2 to hit.

Most DM's give Bards 6+ skills/level, me included. Its common enough to bank on. As mentioned above, acting in the surprise round is nice once in awhile. Use those spare skill points to increase your Spot. You won't regret it. Your party also won't regret having a few more healing spells in the party, even if you do have to take of the breatsplate to administer it effectively.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

A simple 12 in wisdom and a single feat for Iron Will grants you a +3 to Will save. That is 50% of the save bonus a 20th level fighter can have.

I dont think it is that high a price.

 

[Limper]

Why didn't they just give you save points? Allocate as you advance...

Also:
Bard is a great class to multi with.

Whats the point of taking the feat anyway... the DCs increse faster than you can deal with them anyway (this applies to EVERYTHING in 3e).

 

[babomb]

the wise fighter thinks of other things first.

If the fighter's wise, he doesn't have to worry about his Will save very much.

 

[Hammerhead]

Bard levels aren't useless for a fighter multiclass. Not only do they shore up all a fighter's weak saves, they also have some nice spells. Not all bards need to take wimpy charms and illusions. Haste, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Endurance, Expeditious retreat (reckless charge) and Protection from Evil are all part of the Bard's repitore. The buff's can make up much of the difference between bard fighter and a straight fighter in single combat. Of course, if you were already getting buffed with those spells, the bard levels aren't as efficient. However, self sufficiency can be worth the loss of pure killing efficiency.

Around level 12, the fighter can pull one of the meanest tricks in the game. Convince the wizard to learn Antimagic Field and make an ioun stone of spell storing. You now have a nearly full proof defense against magical attacks. The stone can also be loaded with fun spells like heal or Tenser's Transformation. If the fighter has adamantine weapons and armor, he'll be at an advantage against most foes because he's prepared to deal with antimagic and they aren't.


Beg for Magic Circle against Evil. Not only does it protect against mind control attacks, it also gives a +2 deflection bonus and wards against demons.

At really high levels, the ring of spell turning becomes a clear winner. Almost all mind affecting spells are targeted, even the ones like confusion, so the ring can provide near perfect protection.

 

[Darklone]

Hey guy.

Your problem is not the low fighter Will save, nor the low cleric Refl save, nor the wizards wasted Fort save (though I know some wizards with CON20 and dex10...)

Your problem is D&Ds one spell => kill.

Sure you can teamwork against that. But at higher levels (well, even Phantasmal killer is hard to resist with a high DC wizard) you ARE dead.

Change those spells if you don't like it or look for WoT or other d20 world or systems...

Basic D&D is that way. Do teamwork or die. Or do teamwork and die and get raised.

 

[Falcon]

Good point, Darklone. This makes sense. That is what I find troubling, for the most part, but I couldn't put my finger on it.
Thanks!