"OK. Make a Will Save." POOF! Go the Fighter and Rogue

[Sir Falke]

Well, I don´t find the low saves a problem at all playing in a group, as other members said before me. A player in my troupe plays his cleric almost perfect: keeps memorizing remove paralysis, spell immunity, dispel magic, endure/resist elements, calm emotions, protection from evil... you get the idea. Of course, he isn´t very good at fighting in melee, but he compensates it by making the other party members almost invulnerable (most notoriously the barbarian)
And yes, they share the magic items according to who needs them the most.
Hope it helps. Look at the cleric spell list: he has a LOT to offer to ward your fighter/wizard/whatever against those nasty spells.
Greetings!

Sir Falke

 

[Al]

magnuskn has an interesting point. Why not ban Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Fatespinner, mental stat boosting items and such mean devices to slaughter the poor characters.

But there's still the possibility of dying. Even with mediocre mental stats, a Slay Living is probably going to take out the poor wizard. So take out all save-or-die spells, death effects and the like.

Hmmm...hold person, sleep and the like are too nasty, because of coup de graces. Better take them out whilst we're at it. May as well take out the coup de grace rules just to make sure.

In fact, we should probably take out the assault spells. 5d6 damage from a fireball could fry an unlucky 5th level wizard, especially if he's hit by two or more. So remove all assault spells.

Sneak attacks look dangerous. One flatfooted wizard could be a gonner if a couple of rogues get the drop on him. Take out sneak attacks, they're too nasty.

But wait...there is still the problem of dying from damage. A high-level fighter can dish out enough damage to actually kill a wizard or commoner in one round. We can't be having that now, can we? Best to remove damage altogether.

The PCs can still die! So, we should remove all of the following: disease, poison, falling, traps, energy drain, breath weapons, petrification, fire, cold, drowning, suffocation, old age, accidental injury, suicide and any other way of the characters getting injured.

Although of course in intrigue campaigns, death is merely one hazard. Social humiliation, loss of status, loss of friends, prison and exile and many others are also dangers. So we'd better take out any way of these happening.

And now the masterpiece is completed. We've taken out any way for the players to get killed, humiliated, punished or otherwise adversely affected. We have created a masterpiece of player security and happiness, the ultimate nirvana of gaming. Now we need to break it to the players. Hey? Where are you lot going?! What do you mean 'you don't want to play?'. I've made this ultimate gaming paradise, no threats whatsoever. Come back!

Ingrates...

 

[Bozo]

Please

Those of you who play wizards and whine about reflex saves should be shot. The wizards in the group I play with (12-15th level characters) Have protection spells to wazoo not to mention magic items they have created. Wizards are not as bad as priests in 3E but as a general statement I would say a party of all wizards would defeat a balanced party in most circumstances. One on one I think a wizrd could take on just about anything whereas the other classes (with the exception or priest) need the support of a wizard to function....

Wizard vs Fighter....hold monster/pocket knife

Wizard vs Rogue...blind sight/hold monster/pocket knife

Wizard vs Monk..fly/ imp-invisibilty...then start the assault..sooner or later the monk will fail a save

I know some smart allec is gonna make a dead magiv zone comment..but really the wizards can just hire mercenaries to take care of that.....

 

[Xarlen]

Ya, so? Sure, if the wizard is facing them toe to toe or expects it. But if they get the surprise round, *BAM*. If they have friends, while that wizard is casting A hold spell, the others are ontop of him.

Have we forgotten about Silence spells? Grappling? Disrupting his casting? Thunderstones? Tanglefoot bags? Heck, a member of your party could Counterspell his hold. That's an action people rarely take, but if you're really afraid of a hold, then ask your buddies for some help?

It Is a game of paper, rock, scissors, *IF* you fully ignore your weaknesses and focus Everything into your benefits. Who is the smatter, a Troll with a Belt of Giant's Strenght, ring of Magic Fang +3, and Boots of Speed, Or a troll with Ring of Elementa Resistance (Fire) or Armor of Fire Resistance?

As pointed before, your role as a fighter is to Fight. But you're not effectively doing that job if you're A) Helpess, or B) Dead. Your fighter wears armor so he won't get hit in melee. How's that deferent from taking feats/magical items/spells from allies to protect his mind? Even devoting some of your cash load to protections or feats Does Not Take Away your ability to utterly anihilate anything on the field within reach of your weapon. If you can keep fighting, are better resistant to a spellcaster's wiles, then your job as being able to fight more effectively is accomplished.

It is better to survive, and take longer, then to hit hard once or not at all, and die. You wish to be wasp, not a bee.

And, taking the Mind modifer away from a spellcaster to allow a DC is like taking the extra Str damage away from the fighter. Mages live because of their high DCs. If everyone keeps making the saves vs. a 10th level wizard's fireballs, then really, he's just rolling 5d6 damage. And, even at Max, 30 points of damage to something at 10th level is Not something to make a carreer on. An 11th level mage's Disintegrate is a DC 16. Even a wizard with a 10 con at level 10 needs to roll just a 13 to make that.

If their mental stat DC upping goes, then all that does is give them more spells, that will do minimum effects. What other purpose is there for your mage? To beef up the fighter, so he can shine all the time? Ooh, boy. Roll me a character sheet Right Now!

 

[Sodalis]

been there- hated it...

the rogue in the party is a force to be reckoned with- and the Dm in our partyknows that- so at the beginning of every combat- "make a will save- you fail- run...in that direction"

the rogue has like a +3 on his save (lvl 17)

and with the insta kill spells out there- he is basically toast. this irked the crapper out of us cause the Dm wuold always target the rogue- for that reason. (starting at lvl 3 on up)

but in some modules, they give tactics that specifically state "he will attack the rogue/ fighters first" and so there is not much to say about them...

But yes- they are annoying. but magic items do help- but can get expensive.

It was posted a while back that a char should not focus on maxing out his main attobute, but to make up for what he is lacking- so a rogue should get a cloak and magic items and feats that help his will save- to guard against these spells, rather than have a +40 on ref, and +2 on will... it is better to have a +20 on both- so that you have a good chance to survive both, and not a 100% on ref (with evasion) and 5% survival for a will save...

best route is a cleric or other char that has two good saves. then you only have to guard against one bad save,...

 

[TiQuinn]

Re: Ok. Make a Will Save.

Well, if the worry is the fighter or the rogue is overly susceptible to mind-influencing spells and the like, then the party should adjust their tactics. Wizards and clerics can free a held character with various spells. Magic items such as cloaks of resistance, and boots of free action might come into play as well. Maybe the fighters and the rogues decide to spend that next ability point on Wisdom instead of Strength or Dex. Perhaps they take Iron Will.

The bottom line is that there are several different ways to skin this cat. The kicker is, for the weaknesses that these classes have when it comes to Will saves, they more than make up for it with their Reflex and Fortitude saves. Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Slay Living, Burning Hands, Disintegrate, etc. Of course, you can always maximize evil spellcasters to make their Dominate Person spell nearly always automatically succeed against fighters, but if there is a give and take to this. That spellcaster is now open to sneak attacks from the rogue, magical attacks from the cleric or the wizard, or attacks from a second fighter in the group.

If the fighter is singled out every time, perhaps unfairly by the DM, then you have an altogether different problem. DMs need to act fairly and vary their routines a bit. Not every spellcaster is going to have Spell Focus in Enchantment, for example nor will they always throw a Hold Person as their first spell in a battle.

But assuming that the DM is acting fairly, where's the quibble? Characters aren't designed to be all powerful. Each one has a weakness that others may try to exploit. Tis the game.

 

[TiQuinn]

Re: OK. Make a Will Save.

Sodalis -

So what does the DM do after his enemy wizard has caused the rogue to flee in fear, and is leftover facing an enraged barbarian, an advancing fighter in full plate armor, a cleric casting a targeted dispel magic, and a wizard casting a chain lightning at him?

 

[Darklone]

Re: Re: OK. Make a Will Save.

Sodalis -

So what does the DM do after his enemy wizard has caused the rogue to flee in fear, and is leftover facing an enraged barbarian, an advancing fighter in full plate armor, a cleric casting a targeted dispel magic, and a wizard casting a chain lightning at him?

I vote for timestop, a few whail of the banshees and perhaps a feeblemind or blindness at the enemy spellcasters?

 

[James McMurray]

Except that your wail of the banshee is useless while timestopped.

 

[Jurai]

Monk/sorceror

My personal favorite is to play a human monk/sorceror. Take one level of monk and you get some great saves, the ability to add your wisdom mod to your AC, and you get evasion at first level. Which means all those pesky reflex saves that are the wizard's bane suddenly become a lot better. Failing still sucks, but if you make your reflex save you take no damage. I like this, as in our campaign we get hit with a lot of area of effect spells. Lots of times only me and the rogue in the party are undamaged. Our DM's pretty cruel too, so we get hit with massively higher level monsters & npc's, so even half damage on some of these would be enough to kill off my sorceror if I didn't have the evasion ability.

1 level of monk really can help a lot. On a previous sorceror I tried 2 levels of rogue to get evasion, but that put me really far behind on the spellcasting curve, so I only recommend the 1 level of monk now.