D&D 5E Old Vexed Question: All too Important Dexterity Stat and Finesse Weapons, namely the Rapier

[Strider1973]

Yes, I know... this topic has been treated over and over again, yet... I'm trying to play, and appreciate, D&D 5th ed. using Rules As Written. At the moment, D&D 5th ed is my go-to-game for Fantasy Settings and Campaigns, nevertheless I've got some problem with some of its rules.

I think the Dexterity is simply too important and too good as a Stat in this game: it influences Initiative, AC (with light and medium armor), saving throws and ability/skill checks, and damage dealt with ranged and finesse weapons. Maybe a little too much...: in the campaign I'm running as a DM, the party features two fighters, and both of them are elves, dex based fighters, studded leather armor, with bow, rapier and shield.

I'm too lazy and I don't like tinkering with the rules too much, but I feel the need of doing something about this: my ideas are
1) removing the rapier as a weapon - but I don't like this at all
2) renaming the rapier as "broadsword" as in AiME, just for the flavor of a medieval setting, but it doesn't solve the problem of Dex being unbalanced as a Stat
3) removing the "finesse" quality from the rapier, and giving it the "light" quality, so as to allow two weapon fighting with a rapier and a dagger or a shortsword
4) toning down the damage die of the rapier from d8 to d6
5) modifying the official rule, and stating that you use Strength to determine the bonus to damage even with finesse weapons: if you want to use Dexterity to determine the bonus damage with finesse weapons, maybe you have to select a specific, homebrew Feat (maybe called Agile Fighter?) that allows you to do so.
What do you think?
Are Dex and rapier/finesse weapons a bug or a problem in your games and campaigns? If so, how do you handle it?
Many many thanks!

 

[Satyrn]

It's been neither a bug nor a problem for my table, no. We've only ever had one character (one of mine) go the finesse route, and that was the case only because I had randomly placed the Standard Array and Dex came up high while my Strength got the 8.


By the way, don't do your option 3. That'd make the rapier the only d8 light weapon. You be breaking your game a little.

 

[Strider1973]

It's been neither a bug nor a problem for my table, no. We've only ever had one character (one of mine) go the finesse route, and that was the case only because I had randomly placed the Standard Array and Dex came up high while my Strength got the 8.


By the way, don't do your option 3. That'd make the rapier the only d8 light weapon. You be breaking your game a little.

Thank Satyrn... I think the rapier is already a little broken as a weapon, since it is the only finesse weapon with the d8 damage. Thanks again anyway for your advice!

 

[Charlaquin]

It’s a known problem, but fortunately not a game-breaking one. If what bothers you most is the mental image of a character with leather armor and a rapier going toe-to-toe with dudes wearing full plate and carrying warhammers, I’d recommend changing the name of the rapier to estoc (and studded leather to brigandine, and maybe even leather armor to gambeson). If what bothers you is there being a 1-handed, 1d8 weapon that keys off Dexterity, I’d recommend dropping it down to 1d6, and maybe giving it Versatile (1d8) or Versatile (2d4), or leave it 1d8 and swap Finesse for Light. Or maybe some combination of the above three options.

If what bothers you is Dexterity being overpowered as a stat, that’s going to take more extensive hacking to fix, which will have further-reaching effects. I’d recommend seriously considering how big of a deal this is to you. If you just can’t accept Dex being the best stat, your best bet is probably to change Finesse and/or ranged weapons to only use Dex to hit, but still use Str for damage, and include a Feat to add Dex to damage with Finesse and/or ranged weapons.

 

[iserith]

Three campaigns ago, there were sometimes instances when the group in the given week (I use a player pool) was all Dex-based. It was hilarious when they'd run across stuff like stuck doors or other challenges where a good Strength score would have come in handy. So just adding a fair and reasonable amount of those sorts of things to your adventures may help. Even jumping and climbing challenges (where there are complications that may call for an ability check) would do.

I don't see Dexterity as a problem per se, but another thing I've found that helps is using the variant encumbrance rules and making doffing an adventurer's pack an action. I don't use these in every campaign or adventure. When I do, players inevitably favor higher Strength scores. Players will desperately try to figure out a way not to have a 10-ft. reduction in their speed, even if it almost never matters. This is best for dungeon delving in my view and not just "all the time." If you're doing a chiefly event-based adventure, then I'd just stick with adding more jumping, climbing, or similar challenges.

 

[Rod Staffwand]

In most of my games, Dexterity traditionally doesn't add to damage for any weapons for balance and conceptual reasons.

However, I've lately scaled back player-facing house rules when playing 5e for simplicity. In my latest campaign, I just give Large and larger monsters resistance to finesse weapons, for example. Or have all magic weapons being remnants of the past age with rapiers and hand crossbows being modern contrivances that will never have enchanted versions.

In any case, with two players going Dexterity fighter in your game, I'd talk it over with them first or wait until the next campaign to make any changes. Perhaps you can find a group compromise, but reducing PC-effectiveness mid-game often engenders bad feelings so get player input and buy-in whenever possible.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

In my game, I changed the rule so that all melee weapons key from Strength. Both monks and melee-type rogues are encouraged to invest heavily in Strength.

But I've also made numerous other changes, to the relevant class abilities, such that doing so is not too much of a burden.

 

[Immortal Sun]

Yes, I know... this topic has been treated over and over again, yet... I'm trying to play, and appreciate, D&D 5th ed. using Rules As Written. At the moment, D&D 5th ed is my go-to-game for Fantasy Settings and Campaigns, nevertheless I've got some problem with some of its rules.

I think the Dexterity is simply too important and too good as a Stat in this game: it influences Initiative, AC (with light and medium armor), saving throws and ability/skill checks, and damage dealt with ranged and finesse weapons. Maybe a little too much...: in the campaign I'm running as a DM, the party features two fighters, and both of them are elves, dex based fighters, studded leather armor, with bow, rapier and shield.

I'm too lazy and I don't like tinkering with the rules too much, but I feel the need of doing something about this: my ideas are
1) removing the rapier as a weapon - but I don't like this at all
2) renaming the rapier as "broadsword" as in AiME, just for the flavor of a medieval setting, but it doesn't solve the problem of Dex being unbalanced as a Stat
3) removing the "finesse" quality from the rapier, and giving it the "light" quality, so as to allow two weapon fighting with a rapier and a dagger or a shortsword
4) toning down the damage die of the rapier from d8 to d6
5) modifying the official rule, and stating that you use Strength to determine the bonus to damage even with finesse weapons: if you want to use Dexterity to determine the bonus damage with finesse weapons, maybe you have to select a specific, homebrew Feat (maybe called Agile Fighter?) that allows you to do so.
What do you think?
Are Dex and rapier/finesse weapons a bug or a problem in your games and campaigns? If so, how do you handle it?
Many many thanks!

DEX has always been a god-stat. The problem isn't the rapier, or even dealing damage or hitting things with Dex at all. The problem is that Dex factors into too many stats compared to any other score.
Want to go first? Dex.
Want to avoid getting hit? Dex.
Want to get out of the way of a fireball? Dex.
Want to do any physical task that doesn't rely on brute strangth? Dex.
Want to steal something? Dex.
Want to hide something? Dex.
Want to hit with a bow? Dex.
Want to play a class that isn't a caster or a brute? Dex.

I'm sorry I just don't see how 5E allowing you to deal damage with Dex has made Dex significantly more powerful. And I don't see how it's removal would make it less powerful. Even back in 3.5 when things worked as people above have suggested, Dex was still an incredibly powerful stat, determining a disproportionate number of interactions with the game, often heavily valued interactions (such as reflex saves, AC, and hide/move silently; hey we all know that paladin!).

4E attempted to solve this by allowing two or more stats to provide similar effects. Int was available for both AC and Initiative, for example and Fort AC could key off Str or Con and the ever objectionable damage being dealt by Charisma for paladins! It certainly moved the game towards making more classes SAD, but it dramatically reduced the necessity for people to pump dex.

If you want to fix Dex, start at the root.

All that aside, this has never been a problem at my tables, ever. If you're seeing it as a problem at your tables, I'd love to hear some examples, but generally speaking these sorts of "fixes" come across in response to hypotheticals and white room math.

 

[Blue]

Yes, I know... this topic has been treated over and over again, yet... I'm trying to play, and appreciate, D&D 5th ed. using Rules As Written. At the moment, D&D 5th ed is my go-to-game for Fantasy Settings and Campaigns, nevertheless I've got some problem with some of its rules.

I think the Dexterity is simply too important and too good as a Stat in this game: it influences Initiative, AC (with light and medium armor), saving throws and ability/skill checks, and damage dealt with ranged and finesse weapons. Maybe a little too much...: in the campaign I'm running as a DM, the party features two fighters, and both of them are elves, dex based fighters, studded leather armor, with bow, rapier and shield.

I'm too lazy and I don't like tinkering with the rules too much, but I feel the need of doing something about this: my ideas are
1) removing the rapier as a weapon - but I don't like this at all
2) renaming the rapier as "broadsword" as in AiME, just for the flavor of a medieval setting, but it doesn't solve the problem of Dex being unbalanced as a Stat
3) removing the "finesse" quality from the rapier, and giving it the "light" quality, so as to allow two weapon fighting with a rapier and a dagger or a shortsword
4) toning down the damage die of the rapier from d8 to d6
5) modifying the official rule, and stating that you use Strength to determine the bonus to damage even with finesse weapons: if you want to use Dexterity to determine the bonus damage with finesse weapons, maybe you have to select a specific, homebrew Feat (maybe called Agile Fighter?) that allows you to do so.
What do you think?
Are Dex and rapier/finesse weapons a bug or a problem in your games and campaigns? If so, how do you handle it?
Many many thanks!

Think about the ripple effects of what you are proposing for the rapier. If long bows do d8, and no finesse weapons do d8, you're going to move even more characters into ranged attacks. The power of ranged attacks compared to melee is a bigger issue then the average 1 a point of damage difference between a hit with a rapier vs. a short sword.

In other words, this is a tiny problem and the cure could push things in an even less desirable direction.

As for DEX being over-good - it is, but the rapier is just an afterthought in that. If changing the rapier will make a negligible difference in the power of DEX. If you think it's a problem, deal with your root cause.

 

[Charlaquin]

DEX has always been a god-stat. The problem isn't the rapier, or even dealing damage or hitting things with Dex at all. The problem is that Dex factors into too many stats compared to any other score.
Want to go first? Dex.
Want to avoid getting hit? Dex.
Want to get out of the way of a fireball? Dex.
Want to do any physical task that doesn't rely on brute strangth? Dex.
Want to steal something? Dex.
Want to hide something? Dex.
Want to hit with a bow? Dex.
Want to play a class that isn't a caster or a brute? Dex.

If by "Always" you mean "since 3rd edition." Dexterity being the god-stat and Wisdom being a nonsense hodgepodge of things are both products of the unification of the task resolution system tying every task to one of the 6 abilities. Dexterity took over every physical task that wasn't obviously based on direct application of force and Wisdom did the equivalent for mental tasks. Charisma was already the only social stat, but it did have its applications somewhat broadened by the change as well.