D&D 5E On whether sorcerers and wizards should be merged or not, (they shouldn't)

[Paul Farquhar]

Warlocks and Sorcerer's get very similar numbers of spells known out of the base class. The biggest difference their, IMO, is the presence in the Warlock subclasses of the Patron spells. My preference would be to give Sorcerers a similar list based on their origin, as WotC has done in a couple of UAs anyway. Giving the Sorcerer access to the small number of quality spells they don't currently get but that Wizard's do seems like too big an ask. Giving them access to more utility spells though - stuff they wouldn't normally spend a precious known slot on, seems like a great idea.

Here's the question - if the answer was more utility spells, but no find familiar, no Tiny Hut, etc, are the Sorcerer fans going to be happy?

The extra spells could well be spells on the sorcerer list that the sorcerer would be likely to take anyway, since that frees up slots to learn some more situational spells.

I don't think there is any need to say "they must all be awesome wizard spells" or "the must all be utility spells", or whatever - just mix it up to suit the theme.

 

[houser2112]

As has been pointed out Metamagic was not the Sorcerer shtick in 3e.

I would dispute this. Granted, any spellcaster could use metamagic, but I think only a spontaneous caster could truly take advantage of metamagic to meet immediate tactical needs. Who has the foresight to know when you're going to be bound and gagged, for instance?

Or tell me, would you stat Elsa as a warlock or wizard?

To me, it's quite obvious she's a sorcerer, due to her being not particularly scholarly (and having her abilities beginning at an age where she could probably barely read), the very tight focus of her abilities, and the lack of an obvious external source of her power.

 

[Fenris-77]

The number of top tier spells in question is maybe 5 out of the 93 in question - Find Familiar and Tiny Hut being the two sky blue spells off that small list. I don't see any reason to give the sorcerer either of those. It seem far more in keeping with the class to give them a solid list of useful spells that match their bloodline, maybe a total of 6 or 8 spells, which is big leap in spells known and also helps keep the bloodlines unique and flavorful.

 

[MoonSong]

Warlocks and Sorcerer's get very similar numbers of spells known out of the base class. The biggest difference their, IMO, is the presence in the Warlock subclasses of the Patron spells. My preference would be to give Sorcerers a similar list based on their origin, as WotC has done in a couple of UAs anyway. Giving the Sorcerer access to the small number of quality spells they don't currently get but that Wizard's do seems like too big an ask. Giving them access to more utility spells though - stuff they wouldn't normally spend a precious known slot on, seems like a great idea.

Here's the question - if the answer was more utility spells, but no find familiar, no Tiny Hut, etc, are the Sorcerer fans going to be happy?

There's a confusion here. Warlock patron spells are spell list expansions not directly added to spells know. However the 'Daily' slots come each with a spell known. So they get 19 spells known total as a baseline not 15.
So basically some breathing room. A mix of missing thematic spells and utility and enough spells known to actually cast them. Though I still miss familiars, these spells don't need to come from the wizard list.

 

[Fenris-77]

Yup, that's correct. I blame my lack of a second coffee. I'd still be fine bumping the sorcerer spells known though. Not so much the actual spell slots per day mind you, but spells known, sure.

 

[MoonSong]

Yup, that's correct. I blame my lack of a second coffee. I'd still be fine bumping the sorcerer spells known though. Not so much the actual spell slots per day mind you, but spells known, sure.

Yes, an extra at first, third and fifth, and a couple more at 18, 19, and 20. Currently only Storm sorcs have a reason to go to 18, and the capstone is very underwhelming taking into account three levels of warlock early on get the same effect, and give more spells known, more cnatrips and two invocations, all of it early on in the campaign.

 

[Fenris-77]

Those three levels of Warlock are probably the strongest argument in favor of giving the Sorcerer some extra love, for sure.

 

[tetrasodium]

I think I kinda remembered that part about metamagic being spells in 2e. However it has only been in core in 3x, and is wasn't considered core enough to survive the playtest. As I said a few pages back, Metamagic was removed from the playtest halfway and nobody noticed nor cared at the time. And given the power level of all/most casters, it would have likely stayed gone without anybody noticing nor caring. I hold the idea that the only reason metamagic made it into the game is because sorcerer exists in the game, and people only noticed it because sorcerers can't ever get anything nice without everybody else wanting it too.

Now, at least personally, wanting more spells in the spell list and more spells known is not too much to ask. More spells known means more like warlock levels of spells known, so there's less pressure to optimize and sorcerers get to be more unique. And more spells in the spell list, something as little as "let the dragon sorcerer actually turn into a dragon and allow every sorcerer to have a familiar" would be fantastic. It doesn't mean "Yeah sorcerer has to have every single wizard spell and know all the spells".

Edit: And the distinction predates sorcerer existing -I still hold nothing was separated from wizard, though a cas can be made for warlock being split from wizard-. Just because the class is called wizard, it doesn't mean it is synnonimus with what most people call wizard. Fans stat Harry as a sorcerer because that is the most accurate representation. Or tell me, would you stat Elsa as a warlock or wizard?

Uhh no... they stat him as a wizard because he is and I can objective prove it, sorcerer in dresdenverse is something else that coincidentally is much closer to the sorcerer with their lack of wizardly training.

Sorcerer...

Spoiler

Spoiler: Your a wizard Harry.

 

[MoonSong]

Uhh no... they stat him as a wizard because he is and I can objective prove it, sorcerer in dresdenverse is something else that coincidentally is much closer to the sorcerer with their lack of wizardly training.

Sorcerer...

Spoiler

View attachment 118361

Spoiler: Your a wizard Harry.

View attachment 118362

In my defense, I was answering to @Todd Roybark who said that fans stat Harry in DnD as sorcerer.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I've asked people citing "bigger spell list" & "93 spells" to list off which of them that they think are top shelf spells?

You claimed that, objectively, the Sorcerer had most of the Wizard's spells. The reverse is objectively true, the Wizard has virtually all the Sorcerer's spells, and many more, besides.
As for your opinion that 5e spell-casting is a solved game, with only a handful of spells that mean anything, I refuse to accept or engage with it.