D&D (2024) One D&D Survey Feedback: Weapon Mastery Spectacular; Warlock and Wizard Mixed Reactions

Jeremy Crawford discusses the results of the Packet 5 Survey:

• Weapon Mastery at 80% approval, and all options except for Flex scored similarly. Crawford says that Flex is mathematically one of the most powerful properties, but will need some attention because people didn't feel like it was. This feature is in the 2024 PHB for 6 Classes, guaranteed at this point.
• Barbarian scored well, particularly the individual features, average satisfaction of 80% for each feature. Beserker got 84% satisfaction, while the 2014 Beserker in the 2020 Big Class Survey got 29% satisfaction.
• Fighter received well, overall 75% satisfaction. Champion scored 54% in the Big Class Survey, but this new one got 74%.
• Sorcerer in the Big Class Survey got 60%, this UA Sorcerer got 72%. Lots of enthusiasm for the Metamagic revisions. Careful Spell got 92% satisfaction. Twin Spell was the exception, at 60%. Draconic Sorcerer got 73%, new Dragon Wings feature was not well received but will be fixed back to being on all the time by the return to 2014 Aubclass progression.
• Class specific Spell lists are back in UA 7 coming soon, the unified Spell lists are out.
• Warlock feedback reflected mixed feelings in the player base. Pact magic is coming back in next iteration. Next Warlock will be more like 2014, Mystic Arcanum will be a core feature, but will still see some adjustments based on feedback to allow for more frequent use of Spells. Eldritch Invocations were well received. Crawford felt it was a good test, because they learned what players felt. They found the idiosyncracy of the Warlock is exactly what people like about it, so theybare keeping it distinct. Next version will get even more Eldritch Invocation options.
• Wizard got a mixed reception. Biggest problem people had was wanting a Wizard specific Spell list, not a shared Arcane list that made the Wizard less distinct. Evoker well received.

 

[Remathilis]

I mean, @Vaalingrade doesn't usually attribute a bad motive to people who view the game differently than he does.

For what it's worth, I wasn't referring exclusively to him.

 

[Kalmi]

If skill proficiency is worthless for a Fighter, that kind of points to a much larger problem with the skill system itself, not merely a Fighter issue.

So this just leads back to the old "anything worth doing outside of combat should be done with magic" issue.

 

[Ashrym]

no fighter will ever take Skilled feat as it is bad.
If it were not, they would not introduce the Skilled expert feat as a replacement.

I have taken skilled on a fighter. I don't usually because bounded accuracy makes it worthwhile to use skills without proficiency as a feat cost, but I have done it.

The 5.24-UA5 fighter using the UA1 backgrounds starts with a feat and has the 1st bonus feat earlier with better benefits than the 5.14 champion fighter. Here's my example....

Rock Gnome Fighter, urchin background: darkvision (60'), gnomish cunning, mending, prestidigitation, clockwork devices; +2 DEX, +1 WIS, sign language, thieves' tools proficiency, insight proficiency, stealth proficiency, lucky feat; athletics proficiency, perception proficiency

standard array ability scores:

• STR: 10
• DEX: 14+2=16
• CON: 15
• INT: 13
• WIS: 12+1=13
• CHA: 8

1st level: fighting style dueling feat, second wind, weapon mastery rapier (vex), weapon mastery heavy crossbow (push), weapon mastery whip (slow). AC 17 (studded leather, shield). 12 hp.

2nd level: action surge

3rd level: subclass (champion) -- adaptable victor (persuasion, typically), improved critical

4th level: observant feat -- +1 WIS, perception expertise, quick search bonus action

5th level: extra attack, keen mind feat -- +1 INT, investigation proficiency, quick study bonus action

6th level: fighting style defense feat, heroic warrior

7th level: weapon expert; longbow (push), whip (topple)

8th level: +2 DEX

9th level: indomitable

10th level: superior critical

11th level: extra attack

12th level: +2 DEX

13th level: weapon adept; rapier (vex, slow), longbow (push, topple), whip (sap, topple)

14th level: survivor -- defy death, heroic rally

15th level: improved action surge, +2 CON

16th level: +2 CON

17th level: unconquerable

18th level: extra attack

19th level: +2 CON

20th level: +2 DEX, epic boon of recovery -- +1 CON, last stand, death defiant

final ability scores (allowing for 22 cap on 19th feat per UA 6 and UA5 20th level bonus):

• STR: 10 (save +6)
• DEX: 22 (save +6)
• CON: 22 (save +12)
• INT: 14 (save +2 ADV)
• WIS: 14 (save +2 ADV)
• CHA: 8 (save -1 ADV)

AC 21 before magic items
244 hp

skill proficiencies: athletics +6, acrobatics +6 (+12 using adaptable victor), sleight of hand +6, stealth +12, arcana +2, history +2 (+8 using adaptable victor), investigation +8, nature +2, religion +2, animal handling +2 (+8 using adaptable victor), insight +8, medicine +2, perception +14, survival +2 (+8 using adaptable victor), deception -1, intimidation -1 (+5 using adaptable victor), performance -1, persuasion -1 (+5 using adaptable victor)

Decent AC, good saving throws, lots of hit points and healing. Adaptable victor opens up quite a bit of skill options because of that long rest swap for it. Bonus feats adding utility do matter, and adding a subclass option like adaptable victor does make a difference.

This is obviously going to change in the next iteration following UA6's approach, but should still be close. Hopefully see the next iteration soon.

 

[MichaelSomething]

There is always at least one that thinks that an ASI will fix the Fighter's issues, no matter how many times it gets debunked.

Would six extra ASI be enough? Just put most of them after level ten.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Would six extra ASI be enough? Just put most of them after level ten.

I think as close to lv20 as possible should fix it!

 

[Ruin Explorer]

• Fighter received well, overall 75% satisfaction. Champion scored 54% in the Big Class Survey, but this new one got 74%.
• Sorcerer in the Big Class Survey got 60%, this UA Sorcerer got 72%.

Late to the party I know, but I gotta say, WotC should not be taking away that 75% statisfaction as "well received" for a class that's been in D&D since 1974, and a version that's essentially been around for nearly a decade now. If people are only at 75% with that, barely 5% above the minimum, that's a problem. What did the Fighter in the big survey get? 50%?

And 72% on Sorcerer? 72%? Barely making it. That ain't a good thing. That's just people saying this version doesn't suck as hard as the previous, not that it's a good class or well-designed or pleasing. Ooof.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Late to the party I know, but I gotta say, WotC should not be taking away that 75% statisfaction as "well received" for a class that's been in D&D since 1974, and a version that's essentially been around for nearly a decade now. If people are only at 75% with that, barely 5% above the minimum, that's a problem. What did the Fighter in the big survey get? 50%?

And 72% on Sorcerer? 72%? Barely making it. That ain't a good thing. That's just people saying this version doesn't suck as hard as the previous, not that it's a good class or well-designed or pleasing. Ooof.

Look, if the point was to make things drastically better, they wouldn't have said the backward computability word.

The second that was on the table, all the oxygen was out of the room.

 

[Maxperson]

I play a fighter often, I think this new version is awesome and I am very happy with it. Name the "some people" and show me where anyone has said that's what they think?

I've never seen anyone say that.

 

[Maxperson]

They could fit Fighter out-of-combat options into the theme of the Fighter subclasses...

We already have Rune Knight being neat for some secondary skills (getting advantage is unique)... and, I guess, Banneret getting Persuasion expertise at lv7 (which on the other hand is too late to wait for, on a stat that's meaningless to their class, and is the exact same thing a Bard does better).

I think the Samurai also had some neat options.

 

[Maxperson]

And also in truth, even for those players who think extra skills DO solve the Fighter's OOC issues... the problem has actually been solved already and most people don't even realize it. WotC made extra skills available to players who actually think it's truly important by giving Fighters an additional feat slot at 6th level, which means they can take the Skilled feat and get THREE more skill proficiencies if they really wanted to. If Fighter players want more proficient skills without even having to "lose out" to other classes in the standardized ASI/Feat system at 4th/8th/12th/etc... they can take Skilled at 6th level and get whatever they feel they need.

But how many Fighter players ever actually do that? I'll bet you virtually none. Because when push comes to shove, none of those Fighter players actually care that much about "out of combat agency" when they instead can just be better at beating people up. They'll use their free ASI/Feat to either boost STR again, or get another combat ability.

Of course they don't actually do that. Why? Because it's a feat tax and feat taxes are avoided. Not spending a feat that could be combat oriented instead of being taxed doesn't tell you that they don't like extra skills as a fix. It just says that they don't want to get it via a tax.

So what we end up with is some people wanting WotC to FORCE Fighter players to have more supposed "out of combat agency" by not giving them a choice in the matter and have 2 skills given to them automatically as class features. And the reason I suspect they want that is because they know in their heart-of-hearts that Fighters being "better out of combat" is merely an aspirational ideal that would "make the game better"... but in reality they (and everyone else) know almost no one actually gives much of a darn about it.

Personally I don't think it should be more skills. Fighters are not skill monkeys. I think they should be better at the skills they get already. Let them pick the 2 skills they chose for being a fighter and get expertise with them. Double proficiency will make them pretty darned good at those skills.

Note: I'm not saying that the above is the only thing that can or should be done, only that I'd like to see it as part of what fighters can do. I'd be okay with that as part of the fighter class and perhaps extras coming in the subclasses like was done with Samurai and a few others.