OOC Kingdom of Ashes IV - Who's yo' daddy?

[Xath]

Things that would be nice to have:
1) AB's freedom from his oath
2) Gyan Thunderheart's freedom.

 

[Queen_Dopplepopolis]

Things that would be nice to have:
1) AB's freedom from his oath
2) Gyan Thunderheart's freedom.

Next time we see Gyan, I'll just send him to heaven with my holy light... and, if the ol' Blue says anything... I just say... I turned it on accidentally... "Tee, hee. It slipped" *looks innocent*

 

[The_Universe]

Was Cawys ever bound to Big Blue by an oath? Or was he just distributing the goods produced by him?

A little bit of both. Cawys was bound by an oath, and profiting from the relationship.

AB may have an oath... but, he's not dumb. If the orders Big Blue gives him are contrary to his alignment or his moral code, I do not think that he would follow them. And so, I do not think that the entire kingdom would be under his controll... moreover, if he is made king, he will have another oath that would, possibly, contradict the oath to the Bluestar.

Not all oaths are magically binding, and no matter one's alignment, those kinds of oaths tend to have more staying power. As has apparently been the case already, if orders are given that contradict one's moral code, it's just as likely that the moral code will change to fit the order, at least to a degree.

Additionally, he may be king, but he still has checks. If he does a bunch of evil bad things, he ends up with a rebellion on his hands... he can't realistically simply listen to the orders of grandpop.

That's true. If things are too bad, you can just depose him. However, you can expect the Bluestar to be a little more subtle.

By the way, does AB still have his Talon tatoo?

Yes.

Or we could all confront AB together... let him how know important it is for him to fill us in... the fate of the kingdom may rest upon it... I don't know if that depth has ever been expressed to him... it seems that when people talk to him it's all "you can't keep it all inside" or "stop being so freakin' broody"... we need to let him know just how important it is that he tells us everything and get it from him...

That could work, although he may be aware of the implications of his actions/inactions already.

(meta) if the potential destruction of the world rested on his *making* the oath, it should be enough to have him fill us in on the details OF that oath.

That's true. But he's a character, not just a plot device, so he may have somewhat complicated (and occaisonally conflicting) desires. He obviously finds the subject somewhat painful on a personal level, and dangerous in a larger sense, or else you'd already know.

 

[The_Universe]

Objective #1 when dealing with the Bluestar: Do not give him freedom.

Before you decide to firmly hold to that, remember that keeping him trapped in the north limits what he can do for you as well as what he can do against you. You can bet that he'll be nothing but flowers and candy until the war against Tain is won, and perhaps even after that. But you're rebellion is hardly his first concern. His initial offer seems to imply that he hates Tain as much (if not more) than you do.

I think it is abundently clear that AB keeps his word. He is probably the most trustworthy person in the whole universe... sure, he's made a deal with the devil... but, that deal has not broken his ability to keep the promises that he makes.

That would seem to be the case, yes. He still seems to be bonded to Jaine, which means as of so far, the two oaths have not conflicted.

If, somehow, the Bluestar were to get out, we need to be sure that he's not feeding on the souls of the living. He's a guy that likes order and stability... he just has no regard for the life of humanity... and, really, why place value on what you have overcome? In many ways, I can understand his twisted logic... he beat death.

Anyone who's been in the North for any length of time should be able to tell you if he's feeding on the souls of the living, or not. That kind of thing ought to be obvious to anyone that's observed the state of life and unlife in the North.

What do we want?
(1) Troops

How many? What kinds? Are you willing to use undead? Monsters? He seems sure to offer you at least some, but he won't be picky as to what he sends you if you leave it up to him, probably.

(2) Big Blue to NOT control the kingdom

That's a good holding point, but if you have to choose between Big Blue and Tain, which would you choose? Which one is worse?

(3) The secrets of how to destroy the blades

Do you need the secret, if he'll destroy them? Is a better idea to simply ensure that they will be destroyed?

4) A safe place to keep the blades until they can be destroyed

He has already offered that, albeit for the one blade you've "traded" him.

What does he want?
(1) Freedom?

Almost certainly. Expect him to ask for this, and be prepared to have an alternative that he'll accept on the table.

(2) The open practice of wizardry?

Almost certainly. When he was alive, he fought for the right of people born without arcane power to study magic. He brought a brief renaissance of thought to the kingdom, spoiled by his own fall to darkness, and the fact that he took so many of his students with him when he fell.

Great set of analysis. Keep it coming.

 

[The_Universe]

Things that would be nice to have:
1) AB's freedom from his oath
2) Gyan Thunderheart's freedom.

If you really want to get these things, you must be prepared to give something in order to get them. What do you have that you're willing to "pay" for these things?

Remember also that you do not really know what binds Gyan - You know a lot more about AB's oath than whatever it is that keeps Gyan alive. He's not a zombie, a ghoul, or a lich...he must be something else...but what?

Regardless, freeing him will almost certainly end in nothing more than his permanent death.

 

[The_Universe]

Well, AB has to follow any orders that the Bluestar gives him. So effectively, the Bluestar would gain control of the kingdom. If the bluestar is free, he can take direct action with his undead minions to control the ringed continent and Prydein. If he's still imprisoned, his influence is limited to AB and whatever living minions he controls.

What do you suppose he would do with whatever degree of control he might have? If he has a lot? A little?

I think one of the things we need to determine is WHY AB is serving the Bluestar. It might give us some insight as to what his oath entails. He seems to be rather closed mouthed about this, so why not ask the next best thing; the other half of the doppleganger. Let's ask AA what could possibly drive him to swear an oath to the Bluestar and what he would be willing to sacrifice. Once we have narrowed down our base, we can focus on key questions, and perhaps unlock some of the mystery that is AB.

Could be. Good idea about asking AA. But remember that part of his oath may be that he cannot speak of its details.

 

[Queen_Dopplepopolis]

Would the Bluestar accept a conditional, temporary alliance? Would he agree to a "we are allies until our enemy is defeated" deal?

 

[The_Universe]

Would the Bluestar accept a conditional, temporary alliance? Would he agree to a "we are allies until our enemy is defeated" deal?

He might, but I would not suspect it to be terribly likely. As someone who is effectively immortal, he's more likely to push for something with increased permanence. He's got all the time in the world, and even if Tain wins *your* war, The Bluestar still has his kingdom. He's probably not motivated by mere concern for the sanctity of the throne.

The closest I would expect would be a period where he might agree not to work against you. Something along the lines of, "After we win, I promise I won't act against the Phoenix Throne for five human generations, and they cannot act against me until then, either" or something like that might be possible, and is a great deal more likely than him agreeing to aid you for the privilege of having you turn against him immediately. The kind of short term alliance you propose appears to benefit him in no way, shape, or form.

It's back to the bucket of worms thing. What's he going to get out of the deal?

"How about you give us candy, and we give you a bucket of worms."
"No."
"Okay...how about we give YOU a bucket of worms, and you give US some candy?"
"No."
"Wait...I have a better idea...You'll TAKE this bucket of worms, and then we'll TAKE the candy...?"

 

[Archon]

Charmed by the Devil

Dealing with the Bluestar in any fashion should be limited to absoulte necessity. We have troops and soon we'll have some mercenaries. Yes, our forces are weak when compared to Tain's but are we willing to unleash an undead horde against living soldiers just doing their job (eventually we will have to face Tain's human troops).
We walk a dangerous path as allies of the Bluestar. Any deal we make will be a costly one.

 

[Queen_Dopplepopolis]

Dealing with the Bluestar in any fashion should be limited to absoulte necessity. We have troops and soon we'll have some mercenaries. Yes, our forces are weak when compared to Tain's but are we willing to unleash an undead horde against living soldiers just doing their job (eventually we will have to face Tain's human troops).
We walk a dangerous path as allies of the Bluestar. Any deal we make will be a costly one.

This is true, Mik... we know that. However, cryptic bits of wisdom aren't going to help us at this point... we're much much beyond that.

What would you suggest instead? How would you complete all the objectives that are listed on this thread without making a deal with him of some sort?

The cost will be high... but, in many ways, I think the benefit will be higher.
Through an alliance with him of some sort, we not only attain our goal of winning THIS war but weaken the Bluestar's forces for a war that will, if we beat tain, inevitable come.