Pathfinder 1E Opinions on Pathfinder

[Vyvyan Basterd]

I'm not blaming the system for any failures.

To add to this before you Uh-Huh! me. There was a corollation between 3E and the phenomenon. So, yes it would be silly if I were to claim that 3E is the direct cause. If that is what you are labelling silly I agree because the game does not state this directly as other have rightly pointed out. I apologize if I was unclear that I meant a corollation and made it seem like I was stating a direct cause.

 

[LostSoul]

The thing is some of us find that to be a dragon, a real dragon. While 4e dragons are seen as just big lizards not real dragon, they do nothing interesting.

It wouldn't have been hard for them to make them more interesting and still keep the combat statblock - a few lines in the Monster Knowledge entries would have helped. "DC 25 - Blue Dragons are known to use rituals to create mirages, turn nearby water into sand, and some can even create sandstorms." Or whatever special abilities they thought blue dragons should have had.

It's not like they haven't done that before; check out the Nightwalker entry.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Well, in regards to dragons, I think 3E/3.5 is the exception and not the rule when it comes to D&D. Back in the grognardy days of 1E, dragons were just their breath weapon or claw/claw/bite and a smattering of low level spells that the DM had to choose. And, only a small percentage of dragons could cast spells as it is (red dragons had a 40% chance of being able to cast, blues were 30%, black was 10%, green was 20% and white was a mere 5%)

I couldn't find my 2E Monster Manual to see how much 2E dragons changed, but I doubt it's as flavorful as 3.0 or 3.5, and I would think that 4E is more in line with 1E in that regards, no?

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

It wouldn't have been hard for them to make them more interesting and still keep the combat statblock - a few lines in the Monster Knowledge entries would have helped. "DC 25 - Blue Dragons are known to use rituals to create mirages, turn nearby water into sand, and some can even create sandstorms." Or whatever special abilities they thought blue dragons should have had.

It's not like they haven't done that before; check out the Nightwalker entry.

I agree, but failure of fluff is another issue I had with 4e. Not anywhere near my main ones, but it just seemed a bit lazy is all.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

Yes. I did not know about the hyperlinked PDFs. This was probably the greatest advance I've seen from the Pathfinder team. It would cut down flip time somewhat between games. It would be ultimately useful if you had access to a computer during the game (I don't).

I thought that we (you and I in particular) were talking about cutting down prep time by using it to quickly access things to copy and paste into a stat block.
This method absolutely cuts down prep time (for me anyway).

In the end though I guess the DDI would be a feasible solution for me. If I played / ran 4E, but I don't and nor will I. So this entire discussion might be a moot point...

 

[billd91]

Well, in regards to dragons, I think 3E/3.5 is the exception and not the rule when it comes to D&D. Back in the grognardy days of 1E, dragons were just their breath weapon or claw/claw/bite and a smattering of low level spells that the DM had to choose. And, only a small percentage of dragons could cast spells as it is (red dragons had a 40% chance of being able to cast, blues were 30%, black was 10%, green was 20% and white was a mere 5%)

I couldn't find my 2E Monster Manual to see how much 2E dragons changed, but I doubt it's as flavorful as 3.0 or 3.5, and I would think that 4E is more in line with 1E in that regards, no?

Here's an excerpt from a help file of the Monstrous Manual:

Red Dragon
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical, sub-tropical, and temperate hills and mountains
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary or clan
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Special
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional (15-16)
TREASURE: Special
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1 (2-5)
ARMOR CLASS: -3 (base)
MOVEMENT: 9, Fl 30 (C), Jp 3
HIT DICE: 15 (base)
THAC0: 7 (at 9 HD)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3+special
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-10/1-10/3-30 (3d10)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Special
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Variable
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Variable
SIZE: G (48' base)
MORALE: Fanatic (17-18)
XP VALUE: Variable
Red dragons are the most covetous and greedy of all dragons, forever seeking to increase their treasure hoards. They are obsessed with their wealth and memorize an inventory accurate to the last copper. They are exceptionally vain and self confident, considering themselves superior not only to other dragons, but to all other life in general.
When red dragons hatch, their small scales are a bright glossy scarlet. Because of this, they can be quickly spotted by predators and men hunting for skins, so they are hidden in deep underground lairs and not permitted to venture outside until toward the end of their young stage when their scales become turned a deeper red, the glossy texture has been replaced by a smooth, dull finish, and they are more able to take care of themselves. As the dragon continues to age, they are more able to take care of themselves. As the dragon continues to age, the scales become large thick, and as strong as metal.

Red dragons speak their own tongue, a tongue common to all evil dragons, and 16% of hatchling red dragons have an ability to communicate with any intelligent creature. The chance to possess this ability increases 5% per age category of the dragon.

Combat: Because red dragons are so confident, they never pause to appraise an adversary. When they notice a target they make a snap decision whether to attack, using one of many "perfect" strategies worked out ahead of time in the solitude of their lairs. If the creature appears small and insignificant, such as an unarmored man, the dragon will land to attack with its claws and bite, not wanting to obliterate the creature with its breath weapon, as any treasure might be consumed by the flames. However, if a red dragon encounters a group of armored men, it will use its breath weapon, special abilities, and spells (if it is old enough to have them) before landing.

Breath weapon/special abilities: A red dragon's breath weapon is a searing cone of fire 90' long, 5' wide at the dragon's mouth and 30' at the base. Creatures struck by the flames must save versus breath weapon for half damage. Red dragons cast spells at 9th level, adjusted by their combat modifiers.
Red dragons are born immune to fire. As they age, they gain the following additional powers: Young: affect normal fires three times per day. Juvenile: pyrotechnics three times per day. Adult: heat metal once per day. Old: suggestion once per day. Very old: hypnotism once per day. Venerable: detect gems, kind and number in a 100' radius three times a day.

Habitat/Society: Red dragons can be found on great hills or on soaring mountains. From a high perch they haughtily survey their territory, which they consider to be everything that can be seen from their position. They prefer to lair in large caves that extend deep into the earth.
A red dragon enjoys its own company, not associating with other creatures, or even other red dragons, unless the dragon's aims can be furthered. For example, some red dragons who have charm
spells will order men to act as the dragon's eyes and ears, gathering information about nearby settlements and sources of treasure. When a red dragon's offspring reach the young adult stage, they are ordered form the lair and the surrounding territory, as they are viewed as competition.

Red dragons are quick to fight all creatures which encroach on their territory, especially copper and silver dragons which sometimes share the same environment. The hate gold dragons above all else because they believe gold dragons are "nearly" as powerful as themselves.

Ecology: Red dragons are meat eaters, although they are capable of digesting almost anything. Their favorite food is a maiden of any human or demi-human race. Sometimes the dragons are able to charm key villagers into regularly sacrificing maidens to them.

Body Tail Breath Spells Treas. XP
Age Lgt. (') Lgt. (') AC Weapon Wizard/Priest MR Type Value
1 1-12 3-12 0 2d10+1 Nil Nil Nil 7,000
2 12-23 12-21 -1 4d10+2 Nil Nil Nil 8,000
3 23-42 21-30 -2 6d10+3 Nil Nil Nil 10,000
4 42-61 30-49 -3 8d10+4 1 Nil E, S, T 12,000
5 61-80 49-68 -4 10d10+5 2 30% H, S, T 14,000
6 80-99 68-87 -5 12d10+6 2 1 35% H, S, T 15,000
7 99-118 87-106 -6 14d10+7 2 2 40% H, S, T 16,000
8 118-137 106-125 -7 16d10+8 2 2 1 45% H, S, Tx2 19,000
9 137-156 125-144 -8 18d10+9 2 2 2 50% H, S, Tx2 21,000
10 156-165 144-153 -9 20d10+10 2 2 2/1 55% H, S, Tx2 22,000
11 165-174 153-162 -10 22d10+11 2 2 2 2/2 60% H, S, Tx3 23,000
12 174-183 162-171 -11 24d10+12 2 2 2 2 /2 1 65% H, S, Tx3 24,000

Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

So a fair number of spells and inherent spell-like abilities as well as useful descriptive text. 2e, I'd say, really does the best job, overall, of having flavor text for monsters. The Monstrous Compendiums and Monstrous Manual were fantastic tools even if they did have some organizational problems. They're reasons I still look quite fondly on 2e as a successful upgrade to 1e in most ways (the ranger character class and priest spell spheres being notable bur editable exceptions).

 

[tyrlaan]

3E does not impose this problem. It is silly to claim it does.
3E won't SAVE you from that problem. I guess maybe 4E will. So if you need to be saved, then you may need to settle for 4E.

You can blame it all on 3E, if it makes you feel better.

Point the first, I think the argument is that 3E engenders the problem, which is a vast difference from imposing it.

Point the second, under what circumstance is your comment about "settling for 4e" remotely called for? It's bad enough I have to see your 4e dig in your sig every time you post, but I'd greatly appreciate refraining from comments like this that can clearly set off the powder keg nonsense that is the edition war.

As many have said time and again: Love 3e or hate 3e. Love 4e or hate 4e. Go nuts. But please, please spare us comments that imply your choice is somehow better.

 

[Voadam]

[Emphasis mine.] The if I am referring to is classes/feats/spells.



Could you give an example in 3.5 or Pathfinder RAW where a given class, feat or spell is available to the NPC or Monster and not available to a PC. I'm not talking about feats that require a physical attribute like wings or Large size, just a feat/class/spell that explicitly says DM Only.



AD&D opponents (mainly monsters) and 4E opponents are explicitly built using different rules than 3E equivalents. This set up an expectation in many players' eyes that the DM would now have to follow the same rules they did. Sure, you can always point to Rule Zero, but disappointing your players by using it as a crutch for every time you want to buck the paradigm isn't exactly a good idea, IMO. Everyone at the table needs to be satisfied with the game, not just the DM.

The 3e/3.5/PF DMG has NPC only classes. Commoner, Expert, Adept, Warrior, Aristocrat. By RAW this is for NPCs only I believe.

The MM has rules for advancing monsters by HD and type. By RAW you can't advance your PC elf by humanoid HD the way a monster can.

This seems directly analogous to the way the 1e DMG had 0-level NPCs as well as witch doctors and shamans for NPC monster classes plus the 1e MM giving advancement rules for various specific humanoids (chiefs having more hp, better AC, attacking as higher HD monsters, etc.)

I can't think of any 1e/2e/basic spells that monsters could get that PCs couldn't, just monster abilities. Any you can think of?

 

[NewJeffCT]

Thanks Billd - it says I must spread the XP around before giving to you again. Looks like 2E was similar to 3E/3.5 in their dragons.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

I thought that we (you and I in particular) were talking about cutting down prep time by using it to quickly access things to copy and paste into a stat block.

We were. And the hyperlinks would definitely save time and is a great idea. The added thought was based on the out-of-the-box portion of the discussion. It would be easier to use complex monsters in Pathfinder if you had access at the table to a computer. All thumbs up from me in this area by the Pathfinder team!