Corinnguard
Hero
Regarding each of the Chromatic, Metallic and Gem Dragons in D&D, was there a version of them that was your favorite? I tend to like the older versions of these dragons.
D&D 5E (2024) Opinions on the Topaz Dragon Reverse Wings?
- Thread starter Kobold Avenger
- Start date
EzekielRaiden
Follower of the Way
I'd have to go through and examine each across the eras. 5e isn't totally devoid of interest, to be clear, I just don't like several of the more obvious design choices. Gold I especially dislike, but black and silver are also just...bleh. Silver in particular looks like someone crashed a bus into them, they look massively overbroad to the point that I don't think they'd walk right, more like waddling. Which sucks because silver and gold are my two favorite dragons!
Scribe
Legend
Sounds like some Survivor threads are needed.
dave2008
Legend
I guess that could be debated. They look backward to me in the FToD image. I will note that RJ said this: "You may have noticed the somewhat controversial design feature but instead of cowardly ‘fixing’ it, I leaned all the way in."
That implies tome that it was a design feature before he got to it. Though it also seems to imply it was perhaps ambiguous in the previous design.
EzekielRaiden
Follower of the Way
@Corinnguard
Going through dragons by group, in no particular order
Gold: I've never liked the fish wings, so I've always had some kind of problem with them. I can't find it now, but there's a picture out there that I absolutely love, which is (for me) the perfect fusion of Eastern and Western dragon traits for Gold. The face has the stylistic elements of an Eastern dragon, but the more wolf-like Western skull shape; it's long and somewhat sinuous, without looking full-on "noodle", and it's got clear muscles and such without looking chonky. All I can remember of it is that there's some kind of Asian-styled ship rigging in the background and that the primary colors of the image are red and (obviously) gold.
Silver: Believe it or not, the original 5e art is pretty good! I think the back legs/lower toros on that piece are too small (or the artist applied way too much foreshortening), but everything from like midriff up is pretty much spot on.
Copper: Again, not keen on the fin-wings. The MtG art card for the Ancient Copper is decent despite the fin-wings.
Bronze/Brass: Personally, I've never been a fan of dragons based on alloys, with the possible exception of Steel. So...I don't really have much opinion on these ones. I'd have done Iron and Cobalt myself (since the latter was known during the Renaissance, albeit not by that name), since we can pretend that Cobalt, rather than being silvery like 90% of metals, instead has a blue tinge.
---
Red: There's a version from 5e art which takes heavy inspiration from Maleficent's dragon form, and I appreciate that, even if Maleficent is clearly black-scaled rather than red. I certainly think at least one of the chromatics should have that knife-thin face and overall body shape, but Red may or may not be the best choice. Barring that, the 4e look is almost perfect, just add back in the classic horns. Red dragons, like Golds, should look both physically powerful and magically powerful, and the classic red design does that. The new one (like too many of the new designs) looks brutish.
Black: As noted, I think black dragons should look like Maleficent from Sleeping Beauty. Jason L. Engle--a prolific D&D artist who did several pieces I liked in 4e--did a very good black dragon again for the MtG art. I can't stand the new version, it makes my skin crawl and not in a "ooh, creepy!" kind of way, but in a visceral, burn-it-with-fire-right-this-second, unthinking-revulsion kind of way.
Blue: Honestly don't know how I feel about the fundamental design from any edition. It's really busy, and the face is hard to parse. Either the MtG art, or the 4th edition version are my preference though, if I had to pick one.
Green: Arguably the most classic of all the D&D dragons, so I think there's power in keeping this pretty "safe" simply because that kind of design should be included somewhere, even if it isn't universal. That said, this is one of the few "new dragon" designs I can see the appeal of; I'd probably aim for something that blends the classic look e.g. the 4e version with the updated look. Keep the face a bit more similar to the old, and tone down but not remove the more dramatic frills and spines and stuff. The leaf-shaped wings on the new look are a nice touch.
White: 4e probably takes it here...but it's a tepid preference, sorta like Blue above. I guess I just don't feel they've captured a truly iconic appearance for white dragons yet.
I've never really had any strong opinions about gem dragons so I can't really say much on that front, other than disliking the (new?) reversed wings of the topaz. Every explanation attempted thus far in this thread makes me like it less, not more, so...yeah.
Going through dragons by group, in no particular order
Gold: I've never liked the fish wings, so I've always had some kind of problem with them. I can't find it now, but there's a picture out there that I absolutely love, which is (for me) the perfect fusion of Eastern and Western dragon traits for Gold. The face has the stylistic elements of an Eastern dragon, but the more wolf-like Western skull shape; it's long and somewhat sinuous, without looking full-on "noodle", and it's got clear muscles and such without looking chonky. All I can remember of it is that there's some kind of Asian-styled ship rigging in the background and that the primary colors of the image are red and (obviously) gold.
Silver: Believe it or not, the original 5e art is pretty good! I think the back legs/lower toros on that piece are too small (or the artist applied way too much foreshortening), but everything from like midriff up is pretty much spot on.
Copper: Again, not keen on the fin-wings. The MtG art card for the Ancient Copper is decent despite the fin-wings.
Bronze/Brass: Personally, I've never been a fan of dragons based on alloys, with the possible exception of Steel. So...I don't really have much opinion on these ones. I'd have done Iron and Cobalt myself (since the latter was known during the Renaissance, albeit not by that name), since we can pretend that Cobalt, rather than being silvery like 90% of metals, instead has a blue tinge.
---
Red: There's a version from 5e art which takes heavy inspiration from Maleficent's dragon form, and I appreciate that, even if Maleficent is clearly black-scaled rather than red. I certainly think at least one of the chromatics should have that knife-thin face and overall body shape, but Red may or may not be the best choice. Barring that, the 4e look is almost perfect, just add back in the classic horns. Red dragons, like Golds, should look both physically powerful and magically powerful, and the classic red design does that. The new one (like too many of the new designs) looks brutish.
Black: As noted, I think black dragons should look like Maleficent from Sleeping Beauty. Jason L. Engle--a prolific D&D artist who did several pieces I liked in 4e--did a very good black dragon again for the MtG art. I can't stand the new version, it makes my skin crawl and not in a "ooh, creepy!" kind of way, but in a visceral, burn-it-with-fire-right-this-second, unthinking-revulsion kind of way.
Blue: Honestly don't know how I feel about the fundamental design from any edition. It's really busy, and the face is hard to parse. Either the MtG art, or the 4th edition version are my preference though, if I had to pick one.
Green: Arguably the most classic of all the D&D dragons, so I think there's power in keeping this pretty "safe" simply because that kind of design should be included somewhere, even if it isn't universal. That said, this is one of the few "new dragon" designs I can see the appeal of; I'd probably aim for something that blends the classic look e.g. the 4e version with the updated look. Keep the face a bit more similar to the old, and tone down but not remove the more dramatic frills and spines and stuff. The leaf-shaped wings on the new look are a nice touch.
White: 4e probably takes it here...but it's a tepid preference, sorta like Blue above. I guess I just don't feel they've captured a truly iconic appearance for white dragons yet.
I've never really had any strong opinions about gem dragons so I can't really say much on that front, other than disliking the (new?) reversed wings of the topaz. Every explanation attempted thus far in this thread makes me like it less, not more, so...yeah.
BB Shockwave
Adventurer
I am mostly a 2E purist, but I like the Topaz, heck I like all the Gem Dragons. WotC never gave us minis of any of them, despite them existing in some 3E books, so I am thankful for Fizban to reintroduce them and Wizkids to make minis of them!
The new design is rather faithful to the old one - keeping the bat-like ear fins, and elaborating on the segmented scales of the body and tail. The 5E design makes this into almost into lamellated armor plating that encircles the Dragon.
I can also see that the backwards wings probably came from this artwork - you can see that on the 2E art, the spike/prong that is the finger-claw on the wing bones points backwards, unlike on most Dragons!
Weirdly though, the Wyrmlings have properly aligned wings. Maybe it turns around during their development? (or the designer forgot it...?)
The new design is rather faithful to the old one - keeping the bat-like ear fins, and elaborating on the segmented scales of the body and tail. The 5E design makes this into almost into lamellated armor plating that encircles the Dragon.
I can also see that the backwards wings probably came from this artwork - you can see that on the 2E art, the spike/prong that is the finger-claw on the wing bones points backwards, unlike on most Dragons!
Would be hard to ignore by a DM considering the miniature to be used look like that...
Weirdly though, the Wyrmlings have properly aligned wings. Maybe it turns around during their development? (or the designer forgot it...?)
BB Shockwave
Adventurer
You keep mentioning 4E, but aside the Green Dragon who grew a Pinocchio horn, all the Chromatics and Metallics stayed the same in 4E as they were in 3E. The Red Dragons sometimes had a beige underbelly, and sometimes it was the same red as the back scales, it was inconsistent. Otherwise, even the miniatures made during this era were the same style as the 3E ones.
Similar Threads
D&D 5E (2014)
Bigby Presents: Glory of the Giants
