D&D 5E Orcs and Drow in YOUR game (poll */comments +)

[Lyxen]

I was thinking the best way (for my groups) would be: a group of epic-tier heroes defeated the Evil Gods about ten years ago, and goblinoids are no longer forced to be evil (any more than humans.)

Why ten years? Long enough for word to have gotten around - goblins are no longer kill-on-sight - but not long enough for a new normal to have really established itself. Goblins don't have a morality or religion anymore; some have embraced one or another, but as a group they're a bit aimless. Older goblins default to the old ways of being, younger ones actively seek new ways. Older non-goblins still have the same gut reaction (though they generally know better than to act on it), younger non-goblins don't have a stereotype to fall back on.

So if anyone's playing a goblin: it's about defining what they are, because right now no one knows.

It's a good principles, and another thing that I like in the principle of Hero Quests to change myths, there is always the butterfly effect of making changes that were unintended. This is where the God Learners really messed up, actually, but still managed to have things somehow holding together despite side effects. So maybe the goblins are no longer evil, but halflings now are (very scary thought).

Or maybe the adventurers discover the effects, but realise as adventures go by that it's them from the future who caused the effects. What will they do ?

 

[DarkMantle]

A trend seems to be showing so far, so hopefully this is not premature.

Some judgement-free implications * from the poll ** and comments so far…

• A significant number of games have orcs and drow that are unaligned/Any Alignment
• However, a majority of games have orcs or drow predisposed -- to some undetermined extent & for various in-fiction reasons -- to evil and will continue to do so
• Little to no evidence of the effects of the WoTC press release on the portrayal of drow and orc in people's own private games
• A compelling in-fiction story could be a deciding factor (totally anecdotal and not supported by actual data)
• A significant number of people do not need or trust WoTC for help/guidance (anecdotal "trust" issues not supported by actual data)

* Based on my own personal interpretations, which may or may not reflect other views
** Self-selection bias in this survey notwithstanding

Thoughts (in respect to your own game please to avoid debates)?

 

[Oofta]

A trend seems to be showing so far, so hopefully this is not premature.

Some judgement-free implications * from the poll ** and comments so far…

• A significant number of games have orcs and drow that are unaligned/Any Alignment
• However, a majority of games have orcs or drow predisposed -- to some undetermined extent & for various in-fiction reasons -- to evil and will continue to do so
• Little to no evidence of the effects of the WoTC press release on the portrayal of drow and orc in people's own private games
• A compelling in-fiction story could be a deciding factor (totally anecdotal and not supported by actual data)
• A significant number of people do not need or trust WoTC for help/guidance (anecdotal "trust" issues not supported by actual data)

* Based on my own personal interpretations, which may or may not reflect other views
** Self-selection bias in this survey notwithstanding

Thoughts (in respect to your own game please to avoid debates)?

Alignment in the MM is, and always has been, just a default. Unfortunately it's just a note in the intro to the MM that's easy to miss; there should be an entire section on alignment and what it means. For a moment there it looked like they were going to remove alignment altogether even for individuals which I think would have been a shame. It's easy to ignore if you don't find alignment useful, for me it gives me a quick 10,000 foot glimpse before I dive into the description more to decide if I'm going to use the book's fluff or not. I think for a book there should be descriptors such as "typically" or "usually" alignment X. I know some people would like a different system, but I think the guidance we have is useful enough and I've never seen a different system that would be much of an improvement.

What I do in my own campaign is based on lore I've established over the years and I don't particularly see a reason to change. Most of the evil monsters I use in my campaign are human or one of the "standard" PHB races, orcs fill a specific niche but it's just a niche.

 

[Lyxen]

Thoughts (in respect to your own game please to avoid debates)?

I just want to say kudos to you for a well managed poll on a difficult subject, and presenting a conclusion that matches really well what was observed, at least from my perspective.

I would also add that, overall, the majority will not be making changes. I think that's what the numbers show, especially if you look at the posts of those who said "we have it covered" where it seems at least sometimes that they used that to just say "I don't need help" anyway. But I might be wrong about this, tell me what you think.

 

[the Jester]

In my game, orcs are "often" evil, using the 3e often/usually/always breakdown. This means not even a majority, but a plurality. Also, this varies from orcish group to orcish group- but on the whole, that's how they shake out. They won't be changing in my game.

Drow, on the other hand, are "usually" evil, but nobody knows they exist- or almost nobody. They're mythic rares, if you will. They are the result of an ancient cosmic conflict- the Alignment Wars- where they were basically tainted as a result of taking the side of Evil. Before that, Drow weren't a distinct elven subrace. After that, they were barely this side of fiends. When Evil lost the Alignment Wars, the Drow, duergar, and others who had joined with Evil were driven from the world, fleeing underground, and some were even thought to have been exterminated. Over the eons the Drow have turned into basically what they were depicted as in 1e up to the GDQ series- mysterious, unknown, demon-tainted. Even among them, however, there are individuals who are Good.

Drow are not pcs in my game, they appear about once per edition, and none of that is likely to change either.

One thing that has changed is that there will be non-Drow dark-skinned elves in my game, however. Traditionally I've usually depicted them as milk-pale to pale green, but there's no reason they shouldn't have dark lineages too.

 

[Gradine]

My default campaign setting is Eberron, but even before then in my homebrew campaigns I had good Goblins and Kobolds and the like. In any case, Eberron Orcs are far and away the most interesting thing D&D has done with Orcs basically ever, and they've been my default Orcs ever since. Eberron Drow are... well, different too, I guess. I've never really felt the need to utilize Drow at all, to be honest.

 

[steeldragons]

They are both always and irrevocably Evil. I do not need WotC "helping" me with changes that are neither necessary nor ever going to happen.

Drow, "dark elves," of my setting are all but myth to the surface world. Only the eldest elves, northern dwarves, and those unfortunate (or foolhardy) who venture too far into the underworld know them to be otherwise.

The ShiDaeiri ("Those of the Blood of the Darkness/Evil") were literally spawned from the spilt ichor of the Elder god of Evil. Karos the Chaosbringer suffered a grave wound during a battle with the Antas the All Mighty, Elder god of Light/Good (from whose own blood in that same battle grew the first elves of good). They do, in fact, exist to this day in the underworld, far down in the subterranean realms and holding large swathes of those realms in the cruel tyrannical demon-worshipping hands.

Banished with their demons by the great elflord, Drythantalir, from the surface realms at the end of the Second Elvin Age, the ShiDaeiri were sealed behind the Giras Thor, the greatest work of the dwarves of Naradun, under whose valiant watch the "Gates of Doom" remain to this day.

They are beings born from the materials of pure Evil, utter Chaos, true and literal "demon spawn." They do not seek redemption, but revenge. Not love of nature, but a lust for the unnatural. Not a careful nurturing their surroundings, but a joyful cruelty against creation.

Simply put, they are (and only capable of) Evil... and revel, unabashedly, in being so. Enslavement. Infliction of pain. Torture. Racial supremacy. Utterly inhuman in their mentality and delighting in psychological abuses. "Cannibalism" of non-drow sentient species. Debaucheries of all kinds are their pleasures.

There is no "Elistree" (or whatever that "good drow" goddess name is). There is no Drizzt. There are not droves of dark elves seeking to escape their wicked society or live in the shadowy woods and not be SO evil or trying to rejoin their "good elf" brethren - which the surface elves of my setting would never consider or even dream as possible, being inherently NOT brethren...or even distant cousins but, from their origin, a completely separate independent species.

Orcs are a created monstrous species, produced as footsoldiers -mortal agents for- the god of bloodlust and war, to wreak havoc and violence upon the goodly peoples of the world. While a widespread threat in former ages, today, what Orcs remain exist mostly in remote mountainous regions and subterranean realms -where they can, indeed, become quite numerous- but engagement s wit hlarge numbers of orcs are a rare occurance these days. Now, should an adventuring party come across an orkish territory on their own...let's just say "troubles" may ensue.

The known species include the Black Orcs found high in the mountains and underground, the Green Orcs found in remote/cursed/desolate hills or woods above ground, and the "Blue" Orcs (more a dull slate or grey kind of color) of the northern frozen reaches who roam more freely out of their snowy mountain strongholds than others types to raid and cause problems for the barbarian clans of the Gorunduu.

Their created purpose and innate nature is Evil. They are not looking to trade or form diplomatic relations with their neighbors. They are not going to suddenly fall for a human maiden (or male youth) for romantic (or otherwise) origin stories for half-orcs in every border town. They are going to use force to defeat their targets/foes and grind them into a gooey red paste. Power maintained through strength is the only way they know how to exist...and what they were created to do.

There are no deep orcish philosophers. No crises of "conscience" (if indeed they are in possession of such a thing) about how they interact with humans or other species, other than to enslave and/or injest. They are carnal, wild, generally dimwitted (if markedly cunning in battle), ferocious, seeking and reveling in violence as a resolution to any situation...yes, "savage" in worst sense. Not "noble savage." Not savage with an elaborate tribal/deep cultural/Klingonese "code of honor." But "Barely more than rabid wild animals" savage, with an insurmountable limitation of their creation -genetics, if you like- of capability or understanding or ability to aspire to be anything more.

Dems deh facts of Drow and Orcs in my setting.

 

[Simonb1]

In my opinion, alignment is a part of the your cultural background.

 

[DarkMantle]

I just want to say kudos to you for a well managed poll on a difficult subject, and presenting a conclusion that matches really well what was observed, at least from my perspective.

Thank you @Lyxen I appreciate you saying that!

I would also add that, overall, the majority will not be making changes. I think that's what the numbers show, especially if you look at the posts of those who said "we have it covered" where it seems at least sometimes that they used that to just say "I don't need help" anyway. But I might be wrong about this, tell me what you think.

It is difficult to project these things into the future, but for now, it does seem like the poll results support that. (This assumes that the users who answer the poll represent the wider D&D gaming population, and that's a big assumption that has to be validated. I don't know if there's circumstantial evidence from, say, the edition wars polls to suggest this might be true.)

 

[Gradine]

A trend seems to be showing so far, so hopefully this is not premature.

Some judgement-free implications * from the poll ** and comments so far…

• A significant number of games have orcs and drow that are unaligned/Any Alignment
• However, a majority of games have orcs or drow predisposed -- to some undetermined extent & for various in-fiction reasons -- to evil and will continue to do so
• Little to no evidence of the effects of the WoTC press release on the portrayal of drow and orc in people's own private games
• A compelling in-fiction story could be a deciding factor (totally anecdotal and not supported by actual data)
• A significant number of people do not need or trust WoTC for help/guidance (anecdotal "trust" issues not supported by actual data)

* Based on my own personal interpretations, which may or may not reflect other views
** Self-selection bias in this survey notwithstanding

Thoughts (in respect to your own game please to avoid debates)?

I will say that while I at no point needed WotC's help in determining the potential alignment of the sentient, sapient species in my campaigns (and voted as much), I do very much appreciate that WotC has taken steps towards making these changes more canonical in D&D moving forward. People are always still gonna do what feels best to them, but I hope that it ultimately opens up newer players to more interesting and complex worlds and role-playing opportunities