Orville: New Horizons (Spoilers)

Ryujin

Legend
Not positive but I think he's been an American citizen for many years, not sure he even still has his Canadian citizenship.
Shatner never gave up his Canadian citizenship and never took American citizenship. He just lives there and owns a rather large property.
 

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Arilyn

Hero
Shatner never gave up his Canadian citizenship and never took American citizenship. He just lives there and owns a rather large property.
OK. Just seemed to remember people here in Canada going, of course he became an American! 😂It was probably just gossip flying around.
 


MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
Orville did the social commentary well the quality didn't suffer.

A few shows doing it overcompensate so are bad before they even land eg the trailer.

Problem is for every Orville or Sense 8 there's several bad to terrible shows quality wise.
I agree. I have to admit, I was getting a bit tired of the moclan story arc, but Episode 8 made it all worth it and feel necessary. I don't think that episode would have had the impact it did if they hadn't developed the characters and story as much as they did. I found the social commentary in Discovery more jarring while watching it. But thinking back, it wasn't any more emphasized than Orville. Probably less. But I just didn't feel as invested in the characters. Few of the story arcs in Discovery had the payoffs that Orville delivered. And, apparently unlike most Star Trek fans, I enjoyed Discovery. Not my favorite Star Trek by any means, but I was engaged enough to complete all seasons.
 

Mallus

Legend
I haven’t finished the final episode yet — didn’t notice it was almost 90 minutes long when I started it late last night — but much respect to Seth for going out on a classic TNG slice-of-life episode.

Also, the Kaylon Primarch announcing he’s leaving a small contingent to defend the homeworld and bringing the rest to Isaac’s wedding is the funniest thing in the entire show. Even funnier than the leg.
 



Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
prove you're not a MAGA troll"

We know you've left, but just to be clear, the only person to use the term "MAGA troll" was you.

All the rest of us said was that you weren't showing a whole lot of empathy for others. As in, maybe, if you felt a bit more for others, you'd see that their need for it exceeds your desire to not have to see it, and you might actually come to like that it is there, for the sake of others.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I agree. I have to admit, I was getting a bit tired of the moclan story arc, but Episode 8 made it all worth it and feel necessary. I don't think that episode would have had the impact it did if they hadn't developed the characters and story as much as they did. I found the social commentary in Discovery more jarring while watching it. But thinking back, it wasn't any more emphasized than Orville. Probably less. But I just didn't feel as invested in the characters. Few of the story arcs in Discovery had the payoffs that Orville delivered. And, apparently unlike most Star Trek fans, I enjoyed Discovery. Not my favorite Star Trek by any means, but I was engaged enough to complete all seasons.

Discovery had a decent pilot and got better season 1-3. At least until season 4 happened. It's better than a few treks season 1 eg TNG, Voyager and by a few accounts Enterprise. I couldn't finish season 1 of TNG or Voyager they were that bad

They didn't do that much social commentary wise like Orville.

Isaac inviting all the Kaylon was funny along with Bortus and his mates chase scene. Well Bortus in general.

Orville didn't really have a bad season and it's dud episodes weren't to bad.

Wasn't a great season final but was good enough. If the show ends there it's complete enough.
 

Just stop with your ruleslawyering. You're basically arguing the equivalent of saying a show about cops and robbers can suddenly become a teen drama and that's okay as long as it never specifically promises cops or robbers on the tin. You come across as trying to win an argument just for winning's sake.

This show pretty clearly did a huge change, doubling down on personal stories and social commentary in S3. It is an unwelcome shift for me. A show should not forget a personal touch (which is why Strange New Worlds is already superior to Discovery), but almost entirely dumping the central conceit of the show just to explore basic humanity? It is preachy and predictable. It isn't new, it isn't exciting. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I disagree to what is preached, it's that I simply don't need that in my entertainment.
This show started out as a comedy. If you were to try and argue that session 3 was lacking in jokes, then you might have a valid point (although the last episode tried to make up for that a bit).

And your example is a bad one. there are a great many TV shows that feature police that do not primarily focus on solving crime.
 
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Argyle King

Legend
I'll just come out and say it, then.

Some groups need representation in our culture. It's a tired, predictable, and selfish trope when random cis white men object to that representation because they don't want 'politics' or whatever in their entertainment. And this isn't the first time I've seen you espouse such opinions. I've seen you do it in the RPG forums too. Hell, I blocked you for about a year due to it, unblocked you and the very first thing I saw?

There it was again.

Tell you what -- don't do it. Easily solved.

FWIW,

I generally felt that Orville provided commentary without the overly "woke" pitfalls of sacrificing the story to do it. (The notable exception being the last episode -trying too hard to squeeze something into where it didn't fit.)
 

Overall, we liked the new season.

Things we've noticed:
darn near every episode had a song. like a whole song performance. That was kinda weird. This is not a talent show.

the pacing was very meandering, especially the pre-intro starts. Way too much wandering around and not drilling into what the ep is about (We're picking up a passenger from Season 1!). Star Treks of old nailed this pacing down for a 45 minute ep. The problem is less about the time limit, and more about the feel of not getting to the point.

For this last ep, the A and B plot did not align/complement/mirror each other. TNG usually did a good job of this (ex. Brothers. the ep where these 2 kids get in trouble AND Lore gets data in trouble).

What I assume is the B plot, interfering with primitive cultures was predictable, and oddly enough too much Telling, rather than Showing.

A big deal was made about the holodeck instead of Movies. And what we get is you can visit other places. Not actualy story telling (interactive movies). That would have shifted the needle for Lcea(sp?). Because A, she needs a career, and holo-novelist could have been it. B, the solution to her problem was being told in a presentation that if we give primitives tech, the mess it up. Imagine if they'd set the simulator up to take her back home and SHOW what happens. Lcea racing to try to counter each step her people took to misuse the tech she'd brought.

Even if she knew it was a simulation, like a game player, she'd still see how she couldn't make it work out as the game modeled jerks being jerks with new toys.

Even the very point told to her, that the people have to change first, could be discovered/realized by Lcea as she tried that move instead.

What we got was simply folks who knew better telling her the answer in different ways, including a scare video.

Just a missed opportunity.
I kinda expected this to be a twist - she decides to go back, takes her toys with her, and hands them out to her people, and sees how everything goes bad. And then, when the quantum core bombs hit the city, the simulation ends, and Kelly explains that they knew what she was doing and decided to let her see the outcome for herself.
I guess it doesn't quite work, because the simulator works in real time and can't do fast forward. If they instead had some kind of virtual reality simulator where you just get some "neural headset" it would work better.

Wouldn't be surprised if something like this was the original idea but they couldn't make it work.

On a meta-level, obviously this is the fiction behind Star Trek's prime directive and Orville's cultural contamination restrictions.
But neither show really bothered to show the development. I imagine because that's atually difficult to write and show.

And perhaps... It's wrong? The claim is that social and technological development must and will happen hand in hand. I think to some extent it's true - to build nuclear bombs or reactors or the internet it's not enough to have one smart person in a basement. You need a lot of them, and they need a lot of resources that won't be made in their basement. This requires a level of social development where you can even collect such a "critical" mass of people that can build this, which requires a large social group that is able to support them so they can spend all their time with math and experiments rather than growing crops or fending off wild animals or whatever it is that might have plagued most humans in earlier times.

But does it mean we're socially also ready to use them responsible? We worried about a nuclear holocaust for half a century basically. To our credit - so far we averted it, despite a few close calls. Maybe we are more ready than we think? But we also have been very slow to deal with climate catastrophe, and the jury is still out that we can manage that - and that would suggest our technological development was too fast for us.
So, I don't know?

Either way, actually telling that story of how a society destroys itself because it got its hand on alien tech might be worth doing.
 

Horwath

Hero
But does it mean we're socially also ready to use them responsible? We worried about a nuclear holocaust for half a century basically. To our credit - so far we averted it, despite a few close calls. Maybe we are more ready than we think? But we also have been very slow to deal with climate catastrophe, and the jury is still out that we can manage that - and that would suggest our technological development was too fast for us.
So, I don't know?

Either way, actually telling that story of how a society destroys itself because it got its hand on alien tech might be worth doing.
Well, we did use nuclear bomb nine years before we connected 1st nuclear power plant to the grid.
So, that's us...
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If someone gives us star trek replicators, we would make an anti-matter bomb out of it.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
The claim is that social and technological development must and will happen hand in hand. ...

But does it mean we're socially also ready to use them responsible?

The claim isn't that if you develop them yourselves, you will be ready. It is that if you don't develop them yourselves, you won't be ready.
 

Stalker0

Legend
But does it mean we're socially also ready to use them responsible? We worried about a nuclear holocaust for half a century basically. To our credit - so far we averted it, despite a few close calls. Maybe we are more ready than we think? But we also have been very slow to deal with climate catastrophe, and the jury is still out that we can manage that - and that would suggest our technological development was too fast for us.
So, I don't know?
Power
The issue with superweapons is it allows an individual greater ability to inflict harm on the masses. There are always "fringe" or "extreme" elements of any society, that believe things woefully different than that society's core. There are for example people on this planet today that would love nothing more to wipe out the entire species.

Back in the day of swords....well they couldn't do too much damage. Today with super plagues and nuclear weapons, should such a group or individual obtain those weapons, the damage they can do is astronomical.

That is the real societal question when it comes to power. Its not about how to have the middle control such power responsibility, that is "relatively easy" in the grand scope (its not easy, but in comparison), it's how do you control or contain the extremes in your society when access to such power is always a risk?

Greed
While power is a bigger question of the fringe, greed is something that infects us right down the middle. The climate crisis today is a symptom of a bigger general problem.... exponential growth. Every modern system today relies on it, systems that do not grow collapse. Yet it is simple to show mathematically that such growth is absolutely not sustainable. There is a wonderful article here that outlines it: Galactic-Scale Energy | Do the Math. The TLDR, even at a modest growth rate of 2.3% (which is low by today's standards), we will be consuming the ENTIRE GALAXY's energy output in a meer 2400 years. And of course, earth will have been completely sucked dry long before that.

The big societal question is whether we can materially "ever have enough". Can we craft a lifestyle that is simply "good enough" and allow everyone in the world to enjoy it? That is the crazier question that Star Trek and Orville push, far crazier than laser guns and subspace communications. Can we as a species fundamentally change our drives?

At the end of the day we have three paths we could follow:
  • Live in a system that constantly grows and then collapses back down. You might assume this is the scenario we live in today, but we control the collapses in our economies well enough that we are more on path 2. A true path 1 scenario would be collapses so great we effectively reset civilization and "start again", which gives earth time to heal and replenish so we can do it all over again.
  • Consume all resources and enter a permanent state of collapse. This is the current path we are on, the direction is very clear, its just a question of how fast we run out of gas.
  • Build a steady state economy that does not require growth. This is a huge shift, and would likely be a lifestyle most of us would have trouble reconciling with, for it would be a very different state of being.
 

Ryujin

Legend
On a meta-level, obviously this is the fiction behind Star Trek's prime directive and Orville's cultural contamination restrictions.
But neither show really bothered to show the development. I imagine because that's atually difficult to write and show.
ST: Enterprise explicitly showed when Archer first considered the development of a Prime Directive.
 




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