[OT] I'm Back
- Thread starter God
- Start date
Sure. I know I seem a little harsh on God. I should probably explain that I am a self-appointed crusader against God. God knows this. God sends his minions to debate with me all the time.
Basically, if he exists, then he made me this way. If he doesn't exist, then all the things I say are true. Either way, I'm right. I know that isn't a novel concept, but it works for me...
I bring the freewill thing up because, in my experience, that argument gives people the most pause. Not because I dwell on it everday.
Personally, I believe in freewill.
William Ronald
Explorer
Without free will, good and evil are meaningless concepts. In my campaign, mortals have a great deal of power to conduct their lives. Even the gods have some rules they must obey and respect. (There are also forces that protect the rules.)
Shalom
Shalom
RangerWickett
Legend
Heh, it doesn't give me pause. It's possible to have foreknowledge and not deny free will. Like the time travel example above pointed out, just because you know what's going to happen doesn't mean that the people aren't freely choosing what they're doing.
Even if God did arrange for you to encounter certain things in life, your choices are wholly yours. If you're hit by a meteor that nearly kills you, you can choose whether you'd rather hide inside so you can't get hurt, or to encourage the space program to do a better job on finding meteors. I view life as a test.
It's kind of like a D&D game. Sure, the DM can railroad the PCs into doing just what he wants, but even on that railroad, the PCs have a choice of whether they want to resist. Much like in real life, you face challenges, because there'd be no personal growth, no chance to be a hero otherwise. It's not the DM's fault if the PCs decide to act a certain way, and likewise, a player can never say that his character acts a certain way because of what the DM did. I recall a big debate we had several months ago, where the DM basically said, "Your PCs are captives of an army, and will be used as cannon fodder. To crush your will, they're going to force you to kill an innocent person, making you just as bad as them. If you don't kill an innocent person, you'll be killed."
And one of the players said, "No." Even in railroading, which honestly, very few people's lives are, you still have a choice.
Challenges are important. In a game, they give us a chance to be heroic and feel better about ourselves . . . maybe even learn a little something about heroism in the real world. And in real life, challenges, though perhaps not as dramatic as a Dragon or a plot to kill the king, are just as important. They give us a way to show that we care, that we are good enough people to not just stand by and let bad things happen if we can prevent them.
And hey, look at me, starting that whole philosophical/religious discussion I was warning us about. Shucks. I'm just trying to clear up a misconception of my own beliefs, and since I'm not trying to comment on anyone else's beliefs, hopefully this won't be offensive.
Even if God did arrange for you to encounter certain things in life, your choices are wholly yours. If you're hit by a meteor that nearly kills you, you can choose whether you'd rather hide inside so you can't get hurt, or to encourage the space program to do a better job on finding meteors. I view life as a test.
It's kind of like a D&D game. Sure, the DM can railroad the PCs into doing just what he wants, but even on that railroad, the PCs have a choice of whether they want to resist. Much like in real life, you face challenges, because there'd be no personal growth, no chance to be a hero otherwise. It's not the DM's fault if the PCs decide to act a certain way, and likewise, a player can never say that his character acts a certain way because of what the DM did. I recall a big debate we had several months ago, where the DM basically said, "Your PCs are captives of an army, and will be used as cannon fodder. To crush your will, they're going to force you to kill an innocent person, making you just as bad as them. If you don't kill an innocent person, you'll be killed."
And one of the players said, "No." Even in railroading, which honestly, very few people's lives are, you still have a choice.
Challenges are important. In a game, they give us a chance to be heroic and feel better about ourselves . . . maybe even learn a little something about heroism in the real world. And in real life, challenges, though perhaps not as dramatic as a Dragon or a plot to kill the king, are just as important. They give us a way to show that we care, that we are good enough people to not just stand by and let bad things happen if we can prevent them.
And hey, look at me, starting that whole philosophical/religious discussion I was warning us about. Shucks. I'm just trying to clear up a misconception of my own beliefs, and since I'm not trying to comment on anyone else's beliefs, hopefully this won't be offensive.
SHARK
First Post
Greetings!
BMF wrote:
Quote:
"Basically, if he exists, then he made me this way. If he doesn't exist, then all the things I say are true. Either way, I'm right. I know that isn't a novel concept, but it works for me..."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.
God indeed made Man, but you are "this way" not because God made you that way, but because of the Noetic Effects of Sin. The Doctrine of Sin, where the corporate rebellion of Adam and Eve ushered into the world, and all of humankind to follow, the sin nature. All of creation is now tainted with Sin.
Thus, either way, you are incorrect. You simply misunderstand the Scriptures, and salient doctrines of the faith.
In addition, though, because of the Doctrine of Free Will, you are largely "the way you are" because you *choose* to be that way. God honors Man's free will. That is the difference between a true, loving creation, one that willingly loves and worships God, and an automoton that simply doesn't think, or *Choose*, like animals in that regard, and just repetitively does that which is in it's nature.
That comprises a very different kind of spiritual, and emotional relationship. Thus it can then also be seen the superior advantages of having the blessing of a Free Will.
It is thus possible to integrate interesting doctrines into the campaign's religions.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
BMF wrote:
Quote:
"Basically, if he exists, then he made me this way. If he doesn't exist, then all the things I say are true. Either way, I'm right. I know that isn't a novel concept, but it works for me..."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.
God indeed made Man, but you are "this way" not because God made you that way, but because of the Noetic Effects of Sin. The Doctrine of Sin, where the corporate rebellion of Adam and Eve ushered into the world, and all of humankind to follow, the sin nature. All of creation is now tainted with Sin.
Thus, either way, you are incorrect. You simply misunderstand the Scriptures, and salient doctrines of the faith.
In addition, though, because of the Doctrine of Free Will, you are largely "the way you are" because you *choose* to be that way. God honors Man's free will. That is the difference between a true, loving creation, one that willingly loves and worships God, and an automoton that simply doesn't think, or *Choose*, like animals in that regard, and just repetitively does that which is in it's nature.
That comprises a very different kind of spiritual, and emotional relationship. Thus it can then also be seen the superior advantages of having the blessing of a Free Will.
It is thus possible to integrate interesting doctrines into the campaign's religions.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
The Traveler
Explorer
Upper_Krust
Legend
Hello God!
Its almost as if you never left us...thats omnipresence for ya' I suppose!
Take care.
Its almost as if you never left us...thats omnipresence for ya' I suppose!
Take care.
Humanophile
First Post
On free will and human suffering: I'm liking the debate, but whether or not it exists, there's nothing we can do about it. I don't believe in free will (my reasons take a while to build to that ironclad logic level, so I'll leave them be for now), but whether people who do bad are meant to be that way, are put there to test us, or chose to do so, the fact of the matter is that they exist. Maybe god wants to test us, maybe it's just a sadist, maybe it doesn't exist (can we get some confirmation from sources close to the big guy?), that doesn't mean that should lay down and die. Or maybe that means that we're not meant to lay down and die. Writing's a lot easier when you do buy into free will, that I will say.
Now, questions for god;
When do you plan on another revision of the bible? I mean, I understand you've put it through plenty way back in the day, but all your publishers were provincial fanatics, and I think an edition for the more cosmopolitan reader would be a huge hit. And when you do decide to publish, can I be the publisher?
Second, can you do anything about the attitude of some of your worshippers? I mean, most of them are nice people, but you really have to change your street team. I know if I ran a band, and someone on my street harassed and harangued people for not liking us, I'd fire that person in a second, and I'd hate for the allmighty to have poorer representation than a music group.
Third, can you tell me when you're planning on winding this whole project down? And do you have any other projects going on in the meantime? (Off the record, was your son just vacationing here last time? Are you sending visions and miracles to some especially virtous blob of protoplasm so he can do whatever your equivalent of "roughing it" is?) I want to know when I should go out by, rack up my bills, and when I can not worry about the hangover the next morning.
And most importantly, since you're all knowing and all seeing, what big changes can we expect when 4E comes out?
Now, questions for god;
When do you plan on another revision of the bible? I mean, I understand you've put it through plenty way back in the day, but all your publishers were provincial fanatics, and I think an edition for the more cosmopolitan reader would be a huge hit. And when you do decide to publish, can I be the publisher?
Second, can you do anything about the attitude of some of your worshippers? I mean, most of them are nice people, but you really have to change your street team. I know if I ran a band, and someone on my street harassed and harangued people for not liking us, I'd fire that person in a second, and I'd hate for the allmighty to have poorer representation than a music group.
Third, can you tell me when you're planning on winding this whole project down? And do you have any other projects going on in the meantime? (Off the record, was your son just vacationing here last time? Are you sending visions and miracles to some especially virtous blob of protoplasm so he can do whatever your equivalent of "roughing it" is?) I want to know when I should go out by, rack up my bills, and when I can not worry about the hangover the next morning.
And most importantly, since you're all knowing and all seeing, what big changes can we expect when 4E comes out?
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