D&D 4E OT: Shadowrun 4E announced

[Felon]

Don't be. And if you are, don't tell us about it. Displaying your ego as part of the discussion is a good way to get people to disregard your reasoning.

Pretty hell-bent on that anyway as far as I can tell, as I am basically just disarming these arguements through repeating things I said 3 pages ago. Case in point...

You shouldn't be smug just yet, because you're missing a major issue - using the right tool for the job. D20 does a number of things very well. However, the number of changes one has to make to the base design in order to make it fit old SR behavior is long, and indicates that d20 really wasn't designed to depict the SR world.

I think it's pretty hard to say that issue has been missed, as it has been the crux of every poster I've replied to. The d20 system is a hammer and a screwdriver and a circular saw. Whatever constitutes "old SR behavior", d20 not only can do it, but chances are the toolset already exists. Without specifics, I can only guess what it takes to depict the SR world. Does it have to do with "grim n' gritty" combat? D20 serves it up nicely. Casting spells with a skill roll? No biggie.

But I do certainly want to point out I'm not trying to convert any fans of the d6 dice-pool system to the d20 camp. I have no major beef against the former, just that my group won't touch it. Mainly, I'm just waiting for folks to provide some support for the arguement that SR simply must use the d6 dice-pool mechanics to continue to be SR.

 

[Felon]

Wow.
To "re-rail" the topic, from what I have read, my impression is that the decker hacking stuff is essentially derived straight from Ghost in the Shell. The information is sketchy, but thats what it sounds like. I personally feel this is a very bad idea, though the intent behind it is laudable.

Well, the simple fact is we're already well on our way to a wi-fi world. That deckes are bound to terminals with a modem cable is a little like those ultra-futuristic characters in Jack Vance novels doing research by leafing through manilla folders in a filing cabinet.

Of course, in both those scenarios there are sound reasons to go with the physical mode of accessing information, but by and large it'll be great for hackers to actually be able to roll with their fellow runners. Just another aspect of SR's "mood" that can undergo adaptation and even improvement.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Mainly, I'm just waiting for folks to provide some support for the arguement that SR simply must use the d6 dice-pool mechanics to continue to be SR.

Heh...the only, and easiest, argument is that that dice mechanic, for example, as well as the other rules, are incorporated into the game as it stands. If you use another set of rules, all you do is emulate Shadowrun with another set of rules.

Apart from that, I think this thread has actually started to become very circular in that argumentation. We all know each other's points of view by now, and we have, or have not, agreed on some of the other's povs...and except for some hairsplitting details, that won't change much. I simply am glad we got the whole thing away from the more aggressive kind of discussion. Shows that, basically, we could all sit down and create a d20 emulation of Shadowrun together, if we wanted to. It certainly would make for an interesting experiment.

Just as a sidenote...I'm not really seeing anything in the d20/OGL world that would manage to nicely emulate the SR mechanic of multiple success results. And I still maintain adding one success every 5 over the DC that was set doesn't cut it, not with the kind of bonuses d20 hands out that go directly on your skill check result. So, anybody got a good idea?

 

[Hurtfultater]

Heh...the only, and easiest, argument is that that dice mechanic, for example, as well as the other rules, are incorporated into the game as it stands. If you use another set of rules, all you do is emulate Shadowrun with another set of rules.

I think Felon's looking for specific examples and explanations. Myself, I think d20 Shadowrun would still be Shadowrun; I just think it would be missing some of the considerable virtues of the other versions. This is not to imply I don't have system beefs aplenty with SR 1,2, and 3.

The dice mechanic, for example. The fact that the probability curves aren't flat means that actions are more predictable. Does anyone dispute that this tends to cause differances in gameplay?

If you're going beyond the basic resolution mechanic, then you have to define what changes you would be making to standard d20. SR's initiative system, for instance, is pretty unique and not part of standard d20. I think SR3's version is the best initiative system put to paper, and that it was probably developed by Kurt Gödel and Willy Wonka. You're free to disagree with me, but it is unique to SR. The Karma system, the damage system, how character advancement works, and the priority system all could be ported to d20, but they could be ported to Unisystem or Storyteller just as easily. At one point, you've got SR3 only with 1d20+mod vs. DC instead of dice pools against a variable target number with exploding successes. It's trivial to say that if you changed d20 into Shadowrun that you'd have Shadowrun.

 

[Vocenoctum]

This doesn't mean what we are saying was wrong. I still think SR is tied to it's ruleset. This is going to make a lot of fans nervous. But if they can pull off the update as well as WOTC did with 3E, it will put fan fears to rest. But I get the feeling it's going to split the player base if changes are to big.

If the changes are a sweeping as it seems, it's not going to be the same Shadowrun. Of course, they admited as much. At least if it's not any good, there's enough material to continue playing 3rd edition, and ignore the new storyline and changes.

Well, here's my perspective. Shadowrun has already drifted. SR3 was needed I think, and a good change, but the setting suffered while they produced Rulebooks, which took way too long to do. Every year we would have slumps where the release schedule became a pipe-dream. Another note about SR3. It wasn't because of a sales slump (like IMO, the current SR4 is), it was because Shadowrun was selling the best of any of FASA's games. They wanted to unite the system and capitalize on the popularity.

Just as SR3's final rule expansion was done, FASA closed down, and the leadership and direction of SR shifted to a new group.

The products since FanPro & the DS guys took over direction have been drifting more and more away from Shadowrun as I knew it. The game shifted quite far, but was still basically constrained by still being SR3.

SR4 is their attempt to do away with that limitation. Most of these people either don't play the game, or play the game so differently from Core that it's not really SR anymore. They are now killing the old stuff, which they deride at each turn, then putting forth their new version of the world and the system.

Hackers is the worst term. It's not an evolution of the Decker term or anything, it's just an attempt to distance SR4 from previous editions. In my (admittedly cynical) view, they will systematically destroy every thing that made Shadowrun the fun gamne it used to be.

SR is dead to me, FanPro put it in it's grave, and wasn't happy enough with alienating just us older players. Now they're coming after your games too.

 

[Vocenoctum]

The dice mechanic, for example. The fact that the probability curves aren't flat means that actions are more predictable. Does anyone dispute that this tends to cause differances in gameplay?

I dislike D% and D20 because the roll means more than the skill a lot of time.
I dislike SR because generally if you have any skill, you wont' fail.

That's why White Wolf has changed the base target number in each version of Vampire I think. They're trying to find the sweet spot.

(ETA: "dislike" is wrong, since I like those three systems. "find fault with for" or something is what I meant.

 

[Hurtfultater]

I dislike D% and D20 because the roll means more than the skill a lot of time.
I dislike SR because generally if you have any skill, you wont' fail.

That's why White Wolf has changed the base target number in each version of Vampire I think. They're trying to find the sweet spot.

(ETA: "dislike" is wrong, since I like those three systems. "find fault with for" or something is what I meant.

Everything has a problem. For myself, 3d6+mods vs. target number hits the sweet spot for general gaming purposes, but an unpredictable system like Paranoia XP's is appropriate for the setting.

Playing the futuristic bandit kings of Seattle works better, for me, with the SR system. Besides, it's a game that thrives on having the PCs get increasingly stupid or desperate in response to the consequences of their actions: you want a mechanic that gives them enough rope with which to hang themselves.

 

[Henry]

Just as a sidenote...I'm not really seeing anything in the d20/OGL world that would manage to nicely emulate the SR mechanic of multiple success results. And I still maintain adding one success every 5 over the DC that was set doesn't cut it, not with the kind of bonuses d20 hands out that go directly on your skill check result. So, anybody got a good idea?

Taking a note from Star Wars, ranges of success can be determined from a gradation scale - for instance, force effects that cause opponents to make higher save DCs based on the skill check result. In SR, this is indirectly modeled with bonuses from cover, smartlinks, etc. In fact, that smartlinks directly subtract 1 from EVERY TN would seem to give as much or more than a single +2 to a check, for instance. One doesn't need to hand out excessive bonuses, and no matter what bonuses are handed out, as long as a tight rein is kept on types of bonuses, you can directly control the result range you're looking for possible for players to achieve. Just as now, someone can get lucky and drop a bunch of sixes, or they can drop a 20 and get an especially good result. The biggest problem one WOULD have is that certain results are not possible, if the skill check is high enough, unless an "exploding 20" concept were created, or at least as is a common house rule, natural 20 = a 30, and a natural 1 = -10.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Does anybody feel like talking about the fact 4th edition is comming out instead of a pointless debate over d20 SR?

I'm pretty excited. My GM says we'll be switching over for sure. Anybody know anything about what they're doing with the system besides what is stated on their website?

 

[Hurtfultater]

Well, here's my perspective. Shadowrun has already drifted. SR3 was needed I think, and a good change, but the setting suffered while they produced Rulebooks, which took way too long to do. Every year we would have slumps where the release schedule became a pipe-dream. Another note about SR3. It wasn't because of a sales slump (like IMO, the current SR4 is), it was because Shadowrun was selling the best of any of FASA's games. They wanted to unite the system and capitalize on the popularity.

SR3 did fix a number of problems people had with SR2. Just like the glam metal aspects, some of the mechanics have aged poorly. Not as poorly as actual glam metal, but not well. I'm with you in the setting degrading, though. I could do with a complete setting reboot and a number of tweaks without the total conceptual changes that WoD went through.

Just as SR3's final rule expansion was done, FASA closed down, and the leadership and direction of SR shifted to a new group.

RPGs are a tough business, and I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to leave it with one last mortgage payment.

The products since FanPro & the DS guys took over direction have been drifting more and more away from Shadowrun as I knew it. The game shifted quite far, but was still basically constrained by still being SR3.

SR4 is their attempt to do away with that limitation. Most of these people either don't play the game, or play the game so differently from Core that it's not really SR anymore. They are now killing the old stuff, which they deride at each turn, then putting forth their new version of the world and the system.

I don't think FanPro's ideal either, but they've got an impetus to put ideas into print. Not only do they have ideas they want to explore, but you can't keep a company afloat just doing reprints and an endless supply of sourcebooks. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, as they've been thoroughly restrained by precedent. I'm just hoping we get a revamped Earthdawn 3rd.

Hackers is the worst term. It's not an evolution of the Decker term or anything, it's just an attempt to distance SR4 from previous editions. In my (admittedly cynical) view, they will systematically destroy every thing that made Shadowrun the fun game it used to be.

Fictional slang is hard at the best of times, and whither the term decks goes, so goes "deckers." I'm sure they won't kill the fun of Shadowrun - if anything, the concept that general corporate cluelessness installed WiFi into everything during an epic buzzword storm makes the madcap libertarian dystopia work even better for me.

SR is dead to me, FanPro put it in it's grave, and wasn't happy enough with alienating just us older players. Now they're coming after your games too.

Please don't give your old books a viking funeral. The cops hate it when you do that. Not that I'd know.