Overpowered/Underpowered Spells?

[Dark Dragon]

Some suggestions & comments

Mind Blank: 24 hours seems fine to me, the idea is to literally hide your mind from external influence, and for a 8th level spell, this seems about right.

Just compare it to ANY other protective spell in regards of duration and the spells it blocks at a 100% chance. There is none with such a wide array(except perhaps in some weird munchkin rule book). Let's take Energy Immunity. Duration 24 hours, used as Fire Immunity. It grants immunity to fire-based attacks, e.g. a Red Dragon's or Hellhound's breath, the heat of a Fire Elemental and other fire attacks of creatures with the fire subtype (this is a bit general, but you know what I mean). It grants also immunity to the following spells:

Burning Hands
Scorching Ray
Fireball
Incendiary Cloud
Meteor Swarm (only partially against the targeted version!)
Fire Trap
Produce Flame
Delayed Blast Fireball
Flaming Sphere
Fire Storm
Fire Shield
Fire Seeds
Flame Blade
Heat Metal
Wall of Fire
Flame Strike (not against holy/unholy damage!)

This is a list from the PHB. Now make a list for Mind Blank...

Mage's Disjunction: You could always change auto-dispel to a dispel check with a bonus equal to your caster level +5 or +10 (max +30 or +35). I say give a bonus on the caster level check otherwise greater dispelling is a better option.

Hmm, that's a good idea.

__________________________

Foresight: I dropped this to a 4th level spell and renamed it intuition. It's just plain silly as a 9th level spell -- moment of prescience is a much better spell at a lower level.

I'm thinking of giving a +1 insight on AC and Ref saves per two caster levels, no matter if it is the caster or a touched creature.

Summon Monster: I've been toying around with following changes

1st CR 1/2
2nd CR 1
3rd CR 2
4th CR 3-4
5th CR 5-6
6th CR 7-8
7th CR 9-10
8th CR 11-12
9th CR 13-14​

Also on this note, I have changed the planar ally/binding spells to affect CR, not HD. This nixs the whole "But I want it to have a template!" problem. Actually come to think of it, I've pretty much changed every reference from HD to CR (esp. for controlling undead--

That seems to be a good alternative.

Power Word X: Power words affect the mind, hence the enchantment school. Essentially you are commanding a creature's mind to stun, blind, or slay itself. Necromany affects directly affects a creatures life-force.

Where did you find that? Power Word: X says only what happens to THE CREATURE, not specifically its mind.
Power Word: Blind can be compared to Blindness/Deafness, a necromantic spell. Either PW:B is in the wrong school or B/D is. I'd say that PW is.
Power Word: Kill has the descriptor [death]. Still, it is an enchantment. WTH?! AFAIK, there is no enchantment spell with the [death] descriptor in the PHB (and IIRC in no other splat book). So why is PW:K in this school??
This two Power Words are just inconsequently written, IMO.
Power Word: Stun. I could agree here, since stunning affects the mind of the target, IIRC.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Yes it can... Read the full combinations of spells I used and it will begin to make sense (Hint specifically read projected image... hint specifically read time stop)... many other things that would promote the ability to cast it inside the cage but we can leave that for other posts....

If you can't be bothered to explain it, I sure can't be bothered to look it up for you...

 

[Khristos]

If you can't be bothered to explain it, I sure can't be bothered to look it up for you...

Well it is someone's choice of whether or not to be ignorant of spells they are discussing. However I would say that it weakens a position if you are ignorant of the spells involved. Needless to say with project image and Time Stop I can forcecage an area with a cloudkill inside of it and a rival character can begin to die while I remain safely outside. There I have explained it.

 

[Merlion]

I beg to differ. My group uses summons to good effect. May depend partly on party make-up though. The ability to suddenly provide flanking for the rogue or an extra set of creatures to tie up the enemy for just a round or two can easily sway the course of battle.

Perhaps. But with summoning spells you would think you could summon something that would do more than just let your rogue get a sneak attack, or have to summon several of them to simply tie up the enemy for a round or two.

From the sound of it, perhaps you are not handling Stun correctly. When stunned, a creature drops all items in their hands and is much easier to hit. Picking those items back up provokes an attack of opportunity. A 1 round stun usually winds up acting like this: Stun foe, it drops its weapon, warriors charge it, getting in attacks effectively at +4 or higher (+2 from charge, -2 AC on stunned opponent and opponent loses dex bonus to AC). The drawbacks from the charge are ignored since the creature is stunned this round. On the next round, when the foe tries to pick up its weapon it suffers a bunch more attacks of opportunity, this time often with multiple creatures flanking it including the party rogue(s). Combine all those together, and it's pretty hard for that foe to survive to even make another attack! Hence, a 1 round stun is often fatal. Of course the reverse situation can happen to the PCs if they are unlucky.

One problem with that. Daze Monster doesnt Stun.....it Dazes. a 1 round daze just means just 1 round of no actions, no dropping anything, no defensive penalties.

In regards to sound burst, the stun is very useful as noted above, but as an area effect that has no save, it's pretty effective in a pinch. Soften up some tightly bunched foes, kill off an opponent who's near death, and since its sonic damage, it overcomes damage resistance problems. Works well against enemy spellcasters or rogues who tend to have low fortitude saves. In fact, I've seen a few higher level casters totally owned by this spell. In one case, the cleric had a wand of sound burst and was able to essentially stun lock the enemy caster. Each blast dealt another 1d8 sonic damage, and after a few rounds, dead caster. Funny thing is, the caster was massively buffed with all the defensive and protective spells, and would have otherwise been very hard to bring down. Since then, I've been a believer in the power of sound burst.

If you want to be a cruel DM, you can use the same tactic against your party spellcaster(s). For example, pit them against a group of enemies including a sorcerer or bard with a pretty high stat bonus for a high DC and keep nailing the spellcaster(s) and/or rogues round after round. It's likely the PCs will get stunned multiple rounds, all the while taking damage. It's bound to show them how powerful that spell is, as well as frustrating the bejeezus out of them during that fight. Can be especially painful when that 1 sound burst keeps hitting multiple PCs!

BTW, I think it's cool that bards now get sound burst in 3.5. That was a very good change, though it competes with a several other equally cool spells at 2nd level.

~shrug~ 1d8 +1 per level damage just seems sort of petty for a second level spell even with a stun. The cap for an area effect 2nd level spell is 5 dice of damage...I would rather have seen 5d6 or some such.

 

[Nail]

.....There I have explained it.

You'll need to do a touch more than that, friend.

 

[Nail]

Summon Monster: I've been toying around with following changes

1st CR 1/2
2nd CR 1
3rd CR 2
4th CR 3-4
5th CR 5-6
6th CR 7-8
7th CR 9-10
8th CR 11-12
9th CR 13-14​

As a confirmed SM fanatic, let me tell you: that's probably is a bad idea.

SM spell's strength is their flexibility. The list already has a monster for all sorts of contigencies....it seems as if you're openning up the field to allow even more. This that your intent? ....and can I play in your game?

Still, the idea has some merit....perhaps a better bet would be linking it to ECL for a given monster. Tougher to implement, tho'.

 

[Pax]

Mindblank
Well, I don't think it is funny to see every wizard (and clerics with the right domain) to be immune vs. Enchantments (Power Words ... ) and many other spells (especially divinations). Put on top of it Improved Invisibility, Fly, Blur and energy protections (energy immunity for 24h).
Now he is immun to Ench., most Evo., Sneak Attacks, Melee attacks, Divinations, ...
How do you challenge this mage without magic ???

With a sack of flour and a strong arm. Or a pump-sprayer and a lot of paint. Seriously - the creature is invisible, not things you coat them with.

Blur and Improved Invisibility won't stack. They both provide a Concealment-based miss chance, and there's no way you can be more than totally concealed. The Blur spell is a waste.

Mind Blank doesn't protect against blindsight, blindsense, or tremorsense. Nor does invisibility fully protect against such things, either. An archer with Blindsight and Improved Precise Shot laughs at invisible foes that don't get FAR away from them.

For a wizard, in 3.5 rules, what you've descried is a LOT of spells to cast:

• Mind Blank - 8th level spell
• Energy Immunity (Fire) - 7th level spell
• Energy Immunity (Cold) - 7th level spell
• Energy Immunity (Acid) - 7th level spell
• Energy Immunity (Sonic) - 7th level spell
• Energy Immunity (Electric) - 7th level spell
• Improved Invisibility - 4th level spell, only lasts 1 round per caster level
• Fly - 3d level spell

That's one eigth, one fourth, one third, and five seventh-level spells ... a not-inconsiderable investment.

One second-level spell later, and the Invisibility is no longer effective against any of yoru foes (your choice of three PHB spells, in fact: Invisibility Purge, See Invisible, or Glitterdust). And even without magic - someone with a (very) good Spot and/or Listen can possibly still pinpoint you - especially if you cast anything with a (V)erbal component.

Meanwhile, once you're targettable, there are plenty of non-PHB evocations and other direct-damage spells which don't use Elemental damage. The Sky Is Falling (Sor/Wiz 3, IIRC), from the Fey Feature on WOTC's website, for example - a decent bucketful of damage, in the form of rocks falling from above. Completely nonelemental. Or Force Orb (Sor/Wiz 4) from Unapproachable East, for fireball-scale damage, but instead of being elemental damage ... it has the [force] descriptor.

Then there're necromantic, non-death-effects. Horrid Wilting, of course ... but also (from Savage Species) Dehydration ... a second-level single-target spell, with the same "sucks the moisture from yoru body" basis for it's damage.

And there's always the old standby ... disintegrate.

All of that, without ever once tossing out a dispel-like effect.

The fighter gets all the hits and can do nearly nothing. It's just stupid to have every encounter containing a magic user in order to challenge the mage.

Potion of See Invisible. Potion of Dragonsight (Draconomicon). Wand of Glitterdust.

 

[Plane Sailing]

There I have explained it.

But you can just do timestop-cloudkill-forcecage to get the same effect. I don't see why you want to use projected image, or what it gains you.

Are you perhaps thinking of using projected image to increase your range slightly?

 

[apsuman]

Yes it can... Read the full combinations of spells I used and it will begin to make sense (Hint specifically read projected image... hint specifically read time stop)... many other things that would promote the ability to cast it inside the cage but we can leave that for other posts.... also read the limited visibility of cloudkill and the ability to see through a wall of force...

Prismatic Sphere is my friend.... well maybe not

Not to be rude here but Plane Sailing asked a good and logical question. Why do you need the projected image here?

He said that it can not be in the cage. Read the SRD and it will begin to make sense (hint read line of effect).

 

[Kalendraf]

Well aside from the intellect comment (I was refering to peoples prime stats, thust the fact people who dont need int sold a headband of int is neither here nor there) Id have to question what dsort of game you play.

If you character are in a game where they only fight for 16 minutes a day (at most), then yes the buffs look nice, and I bet your spell casters seem massively out of whack for they can dump every spell they have in just 16 minutes.

The greyhawk game is a once a month campaign. There are usually a few combats each session, though they might be spread across hours or days of gametime. Typically, the characters use the buff spells for the big fights where they are most needed. There are 3 spellcasters (cleric, bard, sorcerer). Of those, the bard has 1 buff spell (cat' grace) which sometimes get put on herself or the rogue. The cleric usually memorizes some bull's strength or bear's endurance for various characters.

If however this isnt the case your fighters are rubbing themselves of cash:

A +2 sword costs 8.5k
A +1 weapon and +2Str costs 5.5k

A +3 sword costs 18.5k
A +2 weapon and +2str costs 12.5k

A +4 weapon costs 32.5k
A +2 weapon and +4 str costs 24.5k
A +3 weapon and +2 str costs 22.5k

If your fighters are going with straigh +'s on their weapons they arent getting the most bang for their buck.
That is true from the moment they use anything better than a +1 sword.

That kind of charting totally reaks of min/max power-gaming. If that's your style, so be it. This group isn't into that. Sure they may not be the most effecient with their items list for their cash, but they are a lot more unique and interesting due to their choices.

So:
Either your not giving out appropriate stat items (consider if they would have sold a belt of giants strength as fast as they sold the circlet of intellect).
Or your letting people boil the day down to 16 minutes of combat. Which always favours the spell castrs and makes spells seem more powerful than they are.

Majere

I run a mix of published adventures alongside my own material. Many of their foes are humanoids or giants w/o much magic, but they do find some +1 weapons and armor and quite a bit of gold and gems. The headbands of intellect were loot from/near a wizard's tower. It's mostly been up to the characters to spend their wealth on their items, and they just haven't seen the need to buy stat boost items.

The problem seems to be one of perspective. Some players are always going to look things to optimize effeciency, opting to own the most powerful item setup they can obtain at each price point. Fortunately, I don't have those kinds of players. There's no rule that says characters need to have a stat boost item at any certain level, and nothing that says the DM has to hand those specific items out either. And these characters are successful, so there's certainly evidence that such items are not necessary for success.

These characters just treat the buff spells like any other situational spells, and they are still effective.

While I'm at it, though it's getting a bit off-topic here, this is my take on "fixing" stat item pricing:

From reverse engineering the cost of stat items using the formulas in the DMG, stat boost items are underpriced at 1000 x bonus squared to be equivalent to other 2nd level spells. For example, making cat's grace permanent, providing +4 to dex, the cost would be 3 (min cl) x 2 (spell lvl) x 2000 (continuous) x 2 (adjustment for 1 min/level) = 24K. Solve for a bonus squared x cost formula and it comes out to 1500 x bonus squared. Personally, I think that's about right for the stat boost items. If you use that price instead, your calculations from above turn out to be much closer as well:

A +2 sword costs 8.5k
A +1 weapon and +2Str costs 8.5k

A +3 sword costs 18.5k
A +2 weapon and +2str costs 15.5k

A +4 weapon costs 32.5k
A +2 weapon and +4 str costs 32.5k
A +3 weapon and +2 str costs 25.5k

I've read several articles that seem to indicate the 3e and even the newer 3.5 item pricing is largely hogwash. They never updated a lot things they should have in that section of the book. This 1500 x bonus squared pricing makes sense to keep stat boost items in line with other spells made permanent. I've implemented this pricing (along with other changes to magic items) in my other campaign that has the more limited magic. So far it seems to be balanced from what I've seen.