Oy Vey! Why at-will spell-like abilities might not be such a good thing.

[Shadowdweller]

Warlocks--

Apologies if this is redundant, or well known to the lot of you. Recently got my copy of Complete Arcane, and though I've barely had a chance to play through them (thus: take this under advisement), I HAVE noticed one little thing. I really like the Warlock, like the idea/flavor, and balance considerations don't seem too bad at first blush...

...until you introduce the concept of multiclassing

Ouch! A one or two level dip in Warlock gets you INSANE things. For example, a two level dip might conceivably yield A) Detect Magic at will, B) Darkvision AND See Invisibility at will, AS WELL AS C) Some other potent ability at will...let's say Spider Climb...which more or less negates the worth of entire skill (Climb). And of course, since the Warlock is a CORE CLASS, there aren't many cumbersome prerequisites to deal with (aside from alignment, and possible thematics).

Even if you're not merely dipping...Warlocks have a decent BAB, and Invocations, being at will, would seem to scale pretty well.

 

[Henry]

Well, considering that a dip into 2 levels of Rogue gives sneak attack, about 16-20 skill points, AND evasion, or that a 2-level dip into fighter gives no less than SEVEN feats in total in addition to good BAB and hit dice, and it's not so bad.

The thing that bugs me about Warlocks more than anything is flavor and style, first and foremost. If I wanted to play Mutants and Masterminds, I'd play it. The only thing the warlock is missing is vulnerability to fire

 

[Shadowdweller]

or that a 2-level dip into fighter gives no less than SEVEN feats in total in addition to good BAB and hit dice

Err...please excuse my ignorance and/or lack of Sarcasm-Sense...but....

*counts on his fingers*

How are you getting seven?

 

[Knight Otu]

How are you getting seven?

Maybe Henry's counting the proficiencies, as well?
Light, Medium, Heavy Armor, Simple, Martial Weapons, Shields and Tower Shields?

 

[Li Shenron]

I don't own the CArc so I have no idea how many of these a Warlock can have for free, and which spells they replicate, and how they scale by class level.

In theory I'm not against "at will" abilities (after all, non-magical abilities are always at will...).

In practice, I prefer them to be relegated to small effects and available only at higher levels. At least this used to be the trend with D&D characters, but since other games don't have daily limits, I suppose it could be made to work.

One thing that I feel uneasy with for some reason is that, after all those discussions about why monsters deserved a high LA because of "at will" abilities which give much more power to the PC, now we mostly hear explanations that it's only a matter of how many "actions" you get in a day. (I wonder if next step will be something about that since you only get one standard action per round...) Hence, I'd like to hear the author's opinion once more about the current LA

 

[drnuncheon]

Err...please excuse my ignorance and/or lack of Sarcasm-Sense...but....

*counts on his fingers*

How are you getting seven?

Bonus fighter feat, Light armor proficiency, medium armor proficiency, heavy armor proficiency, shield proficiency, simple weapon proficiency, all martial weapons proficiency.

J

 

[Sejs]

Simple Weapons
Martial Weapons
Shields
Tower Shields
Light Armor
Medium Armor
Heavy Armor
Bonus Fighter Feat (1st)
Bonus Fighter Feat (2nd)


...er, I mean yeah. What they said.

 

[Particle_Man]

The only thing the warlock is missing is vulnerability to fire

Grappling -- their secret weakness is grappling. Trust me on this.

And remember, kids, that most multi-class spellcasters SUCK!!!!! If the warlock is actually a good multi-class choice, then that is a good thing and Wotc should be congratulated.

And by the way, of all the people who have every actually played or DM'd warlocks, I don't think anyone has encountered the problems the OP worries about. And I just realized that my DM uses fumble rules and my eldritch blast has to make rolls to hit.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Y'know, the weird thing in my game is that two of the six 17th level PCs have 2-3 sorceror levels. Add in the bard, ranger, and NPC cohort wizard and only 1/3 of my party is devoid of spellcasting ability (fighter & monk).

I never understood the "sorcerors multiclass poorly" bit because they do such a good job of it. Sure, the selection tends to be rather prosaic (shield, mage armor, ray of frost, detect magic, read magic, prestidigitation) but gives a good amount of supplemental power. There's a BAB lost and some hps, but you get a bit of Will save on par with a feat and either a familiar or (house rule) a magic-related feat.

Personally, I'm waiting for the fighter to pick up sorceror and have a familiar with more hps than the wizard.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Bonus fighter feat, Light armor proficiency, medium armor proficiency, heavy armor proficiency, shield proficiency, simple weapon proficiency, all martial weapons proficiency.

Anyways, this is all COMPLETELY beside the point.

These proficiencies are not a very valid opportunity cost, returning to the original point Henry tried to make. Because they are very easy to come by, and will almost certainly be obtained if one chooses to create a character likely to rely upon them (since classes with warrior-calibre BAB tend to possess them).

There's a BAB lost and some hps, but you get a bit of Will save on par with a feat and either a familiar or (house rule) a magic-related feat.

It's all a question of benefits gained vs benefits you would have gained. If you want to play a pure, specialized caster you won't be multiclassing much in the first place. But a specialized rogue who lacks Darkvision as racial ability might very well spend considerable resources obtaining it so as to be able to sneak around in dungeons.

One thing that I feel uneasy with for some reason is that, after all those discussions about why monsters deserved a high LA because of "at will" abilities which give much more power to the PC, now we mostly hear explanations that it's only a matter of how many "actions" you get in a day.

(Non-blast) Invocations actually go a step further here, since many of the buffs last 24 hours and so for the most part don't even require actions when the issues involved (Darkvision when presented with darkness) arise.