Paladin's Divine Challenge

[Lindorie]

I came to the forums to ask this very question, because a Solo ran away from a Paladin's challenge, then attacked someone else in the party a round later. The Paladin couldn't keep up with the flying monster due to terrain and therefore the mark was dropped.

The Paladin was quite upset, even though I was following RAW.

 

[Spatula]

I came to the forums to ask this very question, because a Solo ran away from a Paladin's challenge, then attacked someone else in the party a round later. The Paladin couldn't keep up with the flying monster due to terrain and therefore the mark was dropped.

The Paladin was quite upset, even though I was following RAW.

The same thing would have happened with a fighter's mark. If you can't stay in melee, you can't keep the mark up. That's just how marks work.

While I acknowledge that requiring a paladin to engage the target to continue to benefit from his mark is a good thing and within the spirit of the rules, it seems that allowing an enemy to run away from the paladin (thus, not allowing the paladin to use his mark the next turn) to avoid the mark is not within the spirit of the rules. The point is to force the enemy to attack the paladin - The enemy should not be granted an advantage for running away... IMO.

The point is to provide disincentives for attacking targets other than the paladin, not to force the enemy to attack the paladin. A monster that runs away isn't attacking anyone else (shift + move action in order to get away without an OA), thus if a creature runs away the mark has fufilled its purpose.

 

[rkanodia]

I came to the forums to ask this very question, because a Solo ran away from a Paladin's challenge, then attacked someone else in the party a round later. The Paladin couldn't keep up with the flying monster due to terrain and therefore the mark was dropped.

The Paladin was quite upset, even though I was following RAW.

Sounds like the mark was doing its job. After all, the monster spent a turn running and not attacking.

 

[slaguru]

The same thing would have happened with a fighter's mark. If you can't stay in melee, you can't keep the mark up. That's just how marks work.

The point is to provide disincentives for attacking targets other than the paladin, not to force the enemy to attack the paladin. A monster that runs away isn't attacking anyone else (shift + move action in order to get away without an OA), thus if a creature runs away the mark has fufilled its purpose.

But if the target then goes on and attacks another target next round this has not fulfilled anything, other than the Paladin being a slow tank that bad guys run from to engage soft targets. If the Mark caused damage once they were away from the paladin, it would be a far bigger incentive for the bad guy to come back and finish the job.

 

[On Puget Sound]

1st level mega-marking: dragonborn fighter / multiclass to any caster.

left side of room: breath, minor action.
right side of room: close blast spell, standard action.

You now have up to 18 foes really mad at you (well, no you don't because if there were that many, most of them are now dead minions).

 

[Spatula]

But if the target then goes on and attacks another target next round this has not fulfilled anything, other than the Paladin being a slow tank that bad guys run from to engage soft targets.

Not at all, unless the defender & his soft party members are twiddling their thumbs while the foe is running away. And why would they do that? Point 1 - The foe is giving up an entire round of actions, during which time it can be pummeled from range. That's huge! Point 2 - The paladin can move within range of soft party members and ready a divine challenge (or charge for fighters) for when the creature reappears. Point 3 - Soft party members can move to place the defender between them and the returning foe. Running away is basically giving the PCs a free round to reposition, heal, etc. Again, that's a huge benefit.

If the Mark caused damage once they were away from the paladin, it would be a far bigger incentive for the bad guy to come back and finish the job.

It would also be a far bigger incentive for paladins to mark foes and then run away from them while the rest of the party slows/immobilizes/stuns/knocks prone the marked foes.

 

[MeMeMeMe]

A paladin is probably going to be wearing heavy armor and be at -1 to move, limiting his range. Most enemies will be able to outrun him. And should an enemy outrun him, the paladin is put in the disadvantageous situation of not being able to use his mark the next round.

The bold bit isn't true, is it?
Paladin acts: he spends a minor action and divine challenges an enemy. Then he either moves adjacent to that enemy, or fires a ranged weapon at him. At this point, the mark is in place.

On its turn, the enemy then moves away from the paladin: no matter how far he goes, the mark is still in place, at this point. If the creature attacks anyone else, it takes damage.

On his next turn, even if the paladin can't reach it, he can challenge the enemy again, and fire a ranged attack at it: the mark stays in place.

Or, he can challenge someone else, letting the previous mark drop. (Not possibly if only one opponent, of course.)

So, the paladin doesn't necessarily lose his ability to mark an opponent just because a creature moves away.

 

[jaer]

Dual Pick(Standard, when Barkfang doesn't move on his turn; at will)
Make a basic melee attack against two adjacent creatures.

If the paladin has Barkfang marked, and he attacks the paladin and another character, does that trigger the paladins mark?

I would think yes because... the paladins mark says:

Also, it takes radiant damage equal to 3 + your Charisma
modifier the first time it makes an attack that doesn’t include you as a target before the start of your next turn


In this case, the first time he uses one of the two basic attacks to attack someone else... meaning, the second target of the power.

It isn't like a mage throwing an area affect, because it includes the paladin in the area... in this case, this is two separate, attacks.

I would say "no." In fact, I think this is exaclty like a close area attack. The attack power allows the orc to target two people, and the paladin is one of the targets of that attack single power. Whether the power had multiple rolls to hit and damage doesn't seem to matter, otherwise a close blast or area attack would trigger the mark.

I think it is in the spirit of the mark that so long as the paladin is included as a target of a power, the mark does not go off. It prevents the orc from ignoring the paladin completely, but it doesn't prevent him using his powers to the fullest and hitting someone else as well.

 

[Spatula]

On his next turn, even if the paladin can't reach it, he can challenge the enemy again, and fire a ranged attack at it: the mark stays in place.

Oh yeah, any attack keeps the mark going. Given that javelins have a range of 20, a creature would have to basically go where the paladin can't reach it in order for the mark to fall off.