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Paladins - likes and dislikes?
- Thread starter TheLe
- Start date
Sound of Azure
Contemplative Soul
More class threads? 
Paladins... well.
I like the inherent goodness in the class.
I like that they are a martial arm of their deity/church.
I like that they can be relied by their companions to support them.
I like that Paladins are not all about destruction, they have healing abilities.
I like the flavour of the Paladin Spell List.
I dislike the 3.5 "pokemount" (I personally use the 3.0 version).
I dislike the stigma attached to Paladins as being stick-in-the-muds (I think they can be that way, but not all are).
I dislike the idea that paladins are the enemy of rogues for the same reason.
I dislike that Paladins are not especially portable to other cultures.
Other points
I'd really like it if Paladins (and a number of other classes) were more customisable in their abilities.
I'd like it if Paladins were able to be adjusted for a number of different alignments.
A number of the Knight class powers seem appropriate for Paladins. I can easily see the Paladin(as it stands) and Blackguard being prestige classes for the Knight.
A Paladin is, in many ways a martial priest. I think Paladin should fit this archetype instead, with Cleric becoming a less martial class.
Well, those are my thoughts.... take them as you will.
Paladins... well.
I like the inherent goodness in the class.
I like that they are a martial arm of their deity/church.
I like that they can be relied by their companions to support them.
I like that Paladins are not all about destruction, they have healing abilities.
I like the flavour of the Paladin Spell List.
I dislike the 3.5 "pokemount" (I personally use the 3.0 version).
I dislike the stigma attached to Paladins as being stick-in-the-muds (I think they can be that way, but not all are).
I dislike the idea that paladins are the enemy of rogues for the same reason.
I dislike that Paladins are not especially portable to other cultures.
Other points
I'd really like it if Paladins (and a number of other classes) were more customisable in their abilities.
I'd like it if Paladins were able to be adjusted for a number of different alignments.
A number of the Knight class powers seem appropriate for Paladins. I can easily see the Paladin(as it stands) and Blackguard being prestige classes for the Knight.
A Paladin is, in many ways a martial priest. I think Paladin should fit this archetype instead, with Cleric becoming a less martial class.
Well, those are my thoughts.... take them as you will.
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
I don't like many aspects of the CoC. I don't like the rules against poison (you can't slip knockout poison into an enemy's group) and how a paladin can't use stealth "except as a last resort" (so there goes Flik the rogue/paladin concept using decent tactics), I hate the rules against lying (you should be prevented from lying to allies and discouraged from lying to others) and I don't like the association rules.
Players sometimes jump through hoops to avoid lying rules. They end up sounding like Vulcan Aes Sedai, finding ways to lie without, technically, lying. A harsh DM will punish them for that anyway, leading to a sullen and resentful player. But if the DM doesn't punish them for that, it means they're not expecting the PC paladin to uphold their code. The association rules means you can't adventure with a lot of adventurers. You can't use the smuggler's ship, the fastest way to the port city, because smugglers are bad people.
I don't like how the CoC is seen - in 2e, you could lose your paladin status for commiting one violation, and DMs often think this is still the case.
The immunity to disease and removal of disease abilities are kind of weak.
I don't know why Lay on Hands was moved from 1st-level; as a level based ability, it was hardly front-loaded. I'm glad many of the other abilities got moved, though.
Likes - er, well, you're a divine class, so you get some spells. You make a decent heavy fighter. You get amazing saves. Your pokemount is an advantage, as you can send it away when yuo don't need it instead of leaving it outside the dungeon to get killed.
Players sometimes jump through hoops to avoid lying rules. They end up sounding like Vulcan Aes Sedai, finding ways to lie without, technically, lying. A harsh DM will punish them for that anyway, leading to a sullen and resentful player. But if the DM doesn't punish them for that, it means they're not expecting the PC paladin to uphold their code. The association rules means you can't adventure with a lot of adventurers. You can't use the smuggler's ship, the fastest way to the port city, because smugglers are bad people.
I don't like how the CoC is seen - in 2e, you could lose your paladin status for commiting one violation, and DMs often think this is still the case.
The immunity to disease and removal of disease abilities are kind of weak.
I don't know why Lay on Hands was moved from 1st-level; as a level based ability, it was hardly front-loaded. I'm glad many of the other abilities got moved, though.
Likes - er, well, you're a divine class, so you get some spells. You make a decent heavy fighter. You get amazing saves. Your pokemount is an advantage, as you can send it away when yuo don't need it instead of leaving it outside the dungeon to get killed.
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Quasqueton
First Post
I wish the paladin class had abilities that made people want to have a paladin in the party. Every party wants a cleric (because his healing is a boon to all), but few particularly want a paladin, and some even specifically don’t want a paladin (because his CoC restrictions are sometimes a detriment to all).
Like the paladin’s aura of courage. That is cool – it gives his party a bonus/boost against fear effects. But the paladin should have more such abilities that make adventurers want to have one in the party. (Even the bard can give all his allies a combat bonus – far more useful than a bonus against fear.)
The detect evil ability is very good for a party, but unfortunately, too many DMs dislike it. (For completely silly reasons, in my opinion and experience.)
Divine grace should apply to all allies within a range. (Maybe just half effectiveness to allies, for balance.)
Smite evil is nice, but it only helps the paladin. The paladin’s mount doesn’t help the party, unless they get all cheesy/gamey and use it as an extradimensional storage locker.
The old AD&D1 paladin’s aura of protection from evil 10’ radius was very good for parties. It hedged out demons and such, so a party could gather around the paladin for protection against big nasties. *That* was a tangible boon at times.
The paladin could have auras that only benefit those allies of good alignment – give incentive to play along and into the paladin’s CoC.
All in all, the paladin should have abilities that make a party consider a serious choice between a fighter or a cleric and the paladin. Paladins should have abilities that make them equally desired as a fighter and/or a cleric. “Hmmm. If we all get the benefits of the paladin’s presence, it could be worth playing along with the paladin’s code of conduct restrictions.”
Quasqueton
Like the paladin’s aura of courage. That is cool – it gives his party a bonus/boost against fear effects. But the paladin should have more such abilities that make adventurers want to have one in the party. (Even the bard can give all his allies a combat bonus – far more useful than a bonus against fear.)
The detect evil ability is very good for a party, but unfortunately, too many DMs dislike it. (For completely silly reasons, in my opinion and experience.)
Divine grace should apply to all allies within a range. (Maybe just half effectiveness to allies, for balance.)
Smite evil is nice, but it only helps the paladin. The paladin’s mount doesn’t help the party, unless they get all cheesy/gamey and use it as an extradimensional storage locker.
The old AD&D1 paladin’s aura of protection from evil 10’ radius was very good for parties. It hedged out demons and such, so a party could gather around the paladin for protection against big nasties. *That* was a tangible boon at times.
The paladin could have auras that only benefit those allies of good alignment – give incentive to play along and into the paladin’s CoC.
All in all, the paladin should have abilities that make a party consider a serious choice between a fighter or a cleric and the paladin. Paladins should have abilities that make them equally desired as a fighter and/or a cleric. “Hmmm. If we all get the benefits of the paladin’s presence, it could be worth playing along with the paladin’s code of conduct restrictions.”
Quasqueton
Sound of Azure
Contemplative Soul
If only the Pokemount comment was my original idea.....
Quasqueton brought up a good point about the Detect Evil ability. I would prefer it was something else. Perhaps detecting things that oppose the Paladin's code of conduct, perhaps? This could also tie into the Smite Evil ability too.
The ideas about different Auras is excellent. Perhaps Aura of grace could be level based, as well?
Paladins (as all classes) should be a valuable member in any group size. Making a few changes liket hese could make that a reality.
The stigma of the CoC will be hard to beat, however. The idea that they need to be played in a particular way seems to be strong in the community.
Quasqueton brought up a good point about the Detect Evil ability. I would prefer it was something else. Perhaps detecting things that oppose the Paladin's code of conduct, perhaps? This could also tie into the Smite Evil ability too.
The ideas about different Auras is excellent. Perhaps Aura of grace could be level based, as well?
Paladins (as all classes) should be a valuable member in any group size. Making a few changes liket hese could make that a reality.
The stigma of the CoC will be hard to beat, however. The idea that they need to be played in a particular way seems to be strong in the community.
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I don't like the idea that a Lawful Good Paladin is a two-dimensional character for whom good and evil is very black and white. But that's more a problem I have with alignments than with the paladin. I don't like Detect Evil as an ability though, as a result.
Other than that I like it, for a group that doesn't demand the 2D 'one personality fits all Paladin' I think it's a fun class.
Other than that I like it, for a group that doesn't demand the 2D 'one personality fits all Paladin' I think it's a fun class.
Aeric
Explorer
I like the idea of being an elite champion of good.
I dislike that the mechanics don't reflect this. Fighters are better all-around combatants. All paladins really have going for them is good saving throws (assuming you have a high Cha) and a couple of useful spells.
I like and dislike the bonded mount ability. I wish there was an alternative to it for those paladins in games and worlds/cultures which don't do a lot of mounted combat. I played a warforged paladin in Eberron, and by the time I got my bonded mount, we never rode anywhere anymore (airships, lightning rails, elemental carts, and eventually teleportation).
I hate the pokemount ability. I understand why it was done, but it just feels lame to me.
Looking at the new knight class, I think that it comes a lot closer to fufilling what I want out of a paladin class than the actual paladin class. My next character (DM willing) will be a knight with maybe a couple of levels of cleric for the spells.
I dislike that the mechanics don't reflect this. Fighters are better all-around combatants. All paladins really have going for them is good saving throws (assuming you have a high Cha) and a couple of useful spells.
I like and dislike the bonded mount ability. I wish there was an alternative to it for those paladins in games and worlds/cultures which don't do a lot of mounted combat. I played a warforged paladin in Eberron, and by the time I got my bonded mount, we never rode anywhere anymore (airships, lightning rails, elemental carts, and eventually teleportation).
I hate the pokemount ability. I understand why it was done, but it just feels lame to me.
Looking at the new knight class, I think that it comes a lot closer to fufilling what I want out of a paladin class than the actual paladin class. My next character (DM willing) will be a knight with maybe a couple of levels of cleric for the spells.
Keith Robinson
Explorer
I have one major problem with paladins - detect evil at will ![:]](http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png "Devious :]")
It means that they walk around constantly scanning everything in sight for signs of evil and it can become a real pain (from a GMs point of view). Should be incremental IMO - 1/day at 1st, 2/day at 5th, 3/day at 10th etc. At least this would make those playing paladins have to be be more juducial in their use of it. Or, as others have mentioned, get rid of it altogether and replace it with something else entirely.
It means that they walk around constantly scanning everything in sight for signs of evil and it can become a real pain (from a GMs point of view). Should be incremental IMO - 1/day at 1st, 2/day at 5th, 3/day at 10th etc. At least this would make those playing paladins have to be be more juducial in their use of it. Or, as others have mentioned, get rid of it altogether and replace it with something else entirely.Similar Threads
