Parrying as a bonus to AC

[GreatLemur]

What are the progressions of the dodge and parry bonuses? How high do they go relative to BAB?

Generally, they lag behind BAB. The very best dodge and parry progressions only keep pace with the Cleric's BAB, while the worst are slower even than the Wizard's (only going as high as +7 in their 20-level progressions).

Interestingly enough, each class also gets a Magic Attack Bonus progression, and magic attack rolls are subject to your Charisma modifier, rather than Dexterity.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

You can with Fighting Defensively. Combat Expertise just makes you better at it.

I allow you to deduct any amount while Fighting Defensively (similar to CE) but you only add 1/2 the penatly to AC. I also removed the +5 limit on CE since it doesn't make sense (forex Power Attack has no such limit). Finally, if you are wielding a weapon that is capable of parrying (ie. swords, staffs and -not- axes) and don't attack with it you get a +1 Parry bonus to AC.

I'm hesitant to give out huge AC bonuses since it causes more problems that it fixes.


Aaron

Parrying doesn't work well in a game where AC is mostly determined by magic items

IMO fighting defensively is not a good substitute for parrying, since a fighter should always be parrying and yet he's not always fighting defensively. Furthermore, the attack rolls are made against AC 10 + non character abilities.

 

[Aaron2]

IMO fighting defensively is not a good substitute for parrying, since a fighter should always be parrying and yet he's not always fighting defensively.

He does, that's why he's 10+AC instead of 5+AC like an inanimate object.


Aaron

 

[GreatLemur]

He does, that's why he's 10+AC instead of 5+AC like an inanimate object.

But the problem a lot of folks in this thread are seeing is that that 5-point difference never really changes without specific behaviors or feats being involved. It sounds pretty reasonable to say that parrying ability should increase along with Base Attack Bonus . . . and be negated almost completely by the lack of a weapon.

 

[Aaron2]

But the problem a lot of folks in this thread are seeing is that that 5-point difference never really changes without specific behaviors or feats being involved. It sounds pretty reasonable to say that parrying ability should increase along with Base Attack Bonus . . . and be negated almost completely by the lack of a weapon.

The way I see it, when a character attacks with full BAB, its assumed he's making an "all out" attack and not focusing much of his energy into defense. So his "parrying ability" does increase, he can allocate BAB either for offense or defense as he feels necessary.

Secondly, if a character has a shield, he won't be parrying with his weapon. Likewise, you can't really parry with a great axe or battleaxe. So a character armed only with those won't have much parrying potential. Likewise, a character with just a dagger will have a hard time deflecting a blow from said great axe wielder. In short I just find too many problems with trying to simulate parrying that its best just to factor it out and move on.


Aaron

 

[Keoki]

You can check out the 3E Swashbuckling issue of DRAGON Magazine (I can't remember the issue number offhand). It contains several Parry feats. Basically, you're allowed one parry attempt per round, an opposed attack roll against an opponent that would otherwise hit you in melee. If you win the roll, you parry the attack. I can't post the feats in their entirety, of course, but you can look for the issue if you like the general idea.

 

[GreatLemur]

The way I see it, when a character attacks with full BAB, its assumed he's making an "all out" attack and not focusing much of his energy into defense. So his "parrying ability" does increase, he can allocate BAB either for offense or defense as he feels necessary.

If he's got the Combat Expertise feat. I actually like the idea of giving everyone both Combat Expertise and Power Attack for free, BAB becomes a generic Combat bonus which can be distributed between attack, defense, and damage as the situation dictates. I'm afraid players would think it's too much of a pain in the ass, though.

 

[Aaron2]

If he's got the Combat Expertise feat. I actually like the idea of giving everyone both Combat Expertise and Power Attack for free, BAB becomes a generic Combat bonus which can be distributed between attack, defense, and damage as the situation dictates.

I let players use weakened version for free: -2 to hit for each +1 damage or AC. The feats make them more effective.

For a swashbuckling game, a good combination would be the Conan parry/dodge bonus (you get too AC values, one for parrying and one for dodge) combined with the Blue Rose/M&M wound roll. This avoid the problem of adding AC bonuses just resulting in longer combat. I'm not sure what to do about armor. Armor as DR tends to encourage the players to use the biggest weapon possible which is the antithesis of what you want in a swashbuckling game.

The Dragon mag in question was 301. For parrying you use an AoO to make an attack roll to beat your opponent's original attack roll. Other feats let you use more than one per round (require combat reflexes) or parry attack made against other people nearby.


Aaron

 

[DanMcS]

You can check out the 3E Swashbuckling issue of DRAGON Magazine (I can't remember the issue number offhand). It contains several Parry feats. Basically, you're allowed one parry attempt per round, an opposed attack roll against an opponent that would otherwise hit you in melee. If you win the roll, you parry the attack. I can't post the feats in their entirety, of course, but you can look for the issue if you like the general idea.

Wow, it's like I'm not the one who posted in the very first post:

I'm not a big fan of parrying as yet another roll in the round. Particularly at high levels, this tends to bog things down. I'd like to try it as a bonus to AC, based on the skill of the parry-er.

I've used the dragon mag feats, 301 as noted above, and they're swell for what they are, but they add another roll to the attack resolution sequence. For the 5 to 9 or more attacks that a single character can make in a full attack as they go epic, it doesn't scale real well.

 

[GreatLemur]

I let players use weakened version for free: -2 to hit for each +1 damage or AC. The feats make them more effective.

That sounds even better. I'd been considering something almost identical to that, in fact. So does that work out okay? How often do your players end up using these options?

For a swashbuckling game, a good combination would be the Conan parry/dodge bonus (you get too AC values, one for parrying and one for dodge) combined with the Blue Rose/M&M wound roll. This avoid the problem of adding AC bonuses just resulting in longer combat. I'm not sure what to do about armor. Armor as DR tends to encourage the players to use the biggest weapon possible which is the antithesis of what you want in a swashbuckling game.

You probably don't want a lot of armor in a swashbuckling game, either. But going back to the Conan RPG--and keep in mind that I haven't played the thing, so I can't vouch for it--armor DR can be halved by heavy, armor-piercing weapons and high STR bonuses, or bypassed altogether by finesse weapons and high DEX bonuses.