pawsplay's dealbreaker list

[pawsplay]

In 1st edition AD&D you can attack with two weapons, provided that the secondary weapon is a dagger or a hand axe. I'm curious, what are you referring to?

At what, -10 to hit or something? And it was impossible in Basic D&D, and probably OD&D as well.

 

[SSquirrel]

*1 hp minions. The concept works in some games, but in D&D, it does not, because hit points already measure minionness.

How many minions are actually 1HP? Higher than 1st level Minions have more HP, I know I've seen higher level listed minions w/ say 10HP. Still a 1 shot kill, but a L30 Minion will have more than 1HP for example.

*The removal of monsters from the MM that have been there since the beginning and will likely be a part of 4e. While I can guess you intend for me to become a sourcebook junkie, it's considered a little crass to flat-out tell someone they will be buying a new MM every year or so just to keep up. Next time? There won't be no next time, for that was th' last time...

I've been too busy to ready many previews this last week..which monsters aren't going to be around? Besides good dragons, which I could care less. Good parties aren't busy killing good dragons

*Wizards as infinite energy machines. I just can't abide wizards zotting all day long. What's wrong with using a crossbow now and then like an honest person?

Funny this is a selling point for me. In 3E games I've made 0 level spells freely cast for awhile now. The 1hp heal has a max of 3/day/person tho....some explanation about an excess of low level holy energy already infusing their body for the day

*No gnome illusionists. Gnomes are barely there, as monsters, and forget about illusionists. I started on Basic D&D; gnome illusionists were something I felt AD&D got you that I thought was valuable.

For me the illusion was always that they had any value in the game. I don't miss them at all.

*Too much ZOWIE. I don't need every dungeon crawl to turn into Kill Bill meets Sailor Moon.

So yr saying D&D is too anime w/o actually using the word. Duly noted. 4E feels more like Die Hard with spells and teleporting to me and I'm alright w/that

*The end of D&D's participation in open gaming. They had the chance, they blew it. And for what?

It was an experiment that they did and chose to end. Companies can still continue producing their lines under the 3.x OGL or they can uprgade the lines to 4E. It's still pretty open and they can even have some lines stay 3.x and some stay 4E, they just can't produce supplements for both under the same line. For example, Arcana Evolved will have to stay 3.x OGL or go 4E, it can't be both. Considering it isn't even in print right now, any new version on shelves would be welcome

 

[Nikosandros]

At what, -10 to hit or something? And it was impossible in Basic D&D, and probably OD&D as well.

Nope. -4 to hit with the secondary weapon and -2 to hit with the primary one. The reaction adjustment from dexterity reduces this penalty.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Times change, different monsters become popular.

Oooh, bad call. The new monsters in the MM don't seem to reflect what's "popular" at all, indeed, the general reception to most of them has been somewhat frosty, on this board and elsewhere. It's more like they've spread the popular/classic monsters around and put in a lot of new "filler" monsters, a few for popularity, but most of which seem destined for extremely mediocrity and causing player eye-rolling.

So, monsters not removed for unpopularity. Precisely the opposite.

 

[GnomeWorks]

Oooh, bad call. The new monsters in the MM don't seem to reflect what's "popular" at all, indeed, the general reception to most of them has been somewhat frosty, on this board and elsewhere. It's more like they've spread the popular/classic monsters around and put in a lot of new "filler" monsters, a few for popularity, but most of which seem destined for extremely mediocrity and causing player eye-rolling.

So, monsters not removed for unpopularity. Precisely the opposite.

Eh, I was just trying to argue from the pro-4e point of view.

If I was wrong, oh well.

Though I admit that I wouldn't be surprised if they're be sticking "filler" monsters into the MM. While they can put enough interesting stuff in the PH2 and DMG2, doing the same for new MMs may be difficult, so maybe they solved the issue by spreading out the more interesting and iconic creatures.

 

[Wisdom Penalty]

While I don't give a svirfneblin whether Mr. Pawsplay goes 4E or not, he's done a lot more than what most folks do when they come slumming around here - he listed his reasons and, though he failed in some aspects, did the best he could do to explain his rationale.

Are some of his concerns valid? I think so.

Are some, ah, not-so-valid? I think so.

But that's just it - I think so. He thinks certain things are not for him.

Who cares? Everyone's got an opinion.

As for me, the orc article was one of the best ones to date in terms of getting my 4E thrummin' a hummin'.

Wis

 

[Will]

My one point of agreement is the open gaming thing. I'm VERY disappointed with the direction 4e is going, and I honestly think they are doing themselves a disservice.

 

[pawsplay]

Hunh? So every race has net penalties? This just doesn't make any sense mathematically, let alone conceptually.

If every other race gets +2 Str and you don't, that's the same as you getting -2. It's called inflation.

For money, that's what. The open content movement is dying all over the place.

I'm less interested in comparing D&D 4e to Radiohead than I am to D&D 3e, which was seemingly a very successful game.

 

[Kishin]

*1 hp minions. The concept works in some games, but in D&D, it does not, because hit points already measure minionness.

Except they are specifically tailored so that they can be disposed of relatively easily, but still have an effect on combat, as opposed to if say you threw a 20 1 HD orcs into a higher level combat and watched them do nothing but miss the entire time?[/quote]

*No second attacks with a second weapon unless you take a power. This is a 1e-ism I can live without. It bothered me then, it bothers me now.

Kinda annoys me too, but I'm waiting to see how full the TWF system is. Fair enough.

*The removal of monsters from the MM that have been there since the beginning and will likely be a part of 4e. While I can guess you intend for me to become a sourcebook junkie, it's considered a little crass to flat-out tell someone they will be buying a new MM every year or so just to keep up. Next time? There won't be no next time, for that was th' last time...

You don't need to 'keep up'. You never did. But other than that, don't have much to say here myself.

*Wizards as infinite energy machines. I just can't abide wizards zotting all day long. What's wrong with using a crossbow now and then like an honest person?

As someone else pointed out, its terribly un-evocative of fantasy, and just plain dull.

*No gnome illusionists. Gnomes are barely there, as monsters, and forget about illusionists. I started on Basic D&D; gnome illusionists were something I felt AD&D got you that I thought was valuable.

No opinion here, really. Stylistic quibble, I'd say. I don't see what's so valuable, but fair enough.

*Too much ZOWIE. I don't need every dungeon crawl to turn into Kill Bill meets Sailor Moon.

Heroic fantasy is all about 'ZOWIE'.

*The end of D&D's participation in open gaming. They had the chance, they blew it. And for what?

...Have you read any of the recent news about the licenses? Both are still more than capable of supporting open gaming.

Expecting someone to be 100% open with their IP in this day and age is IMO very naive.

Open gaming wasn't exactly some huge movement before 3E. It seems like talking about it as if it was is a bit fallacious.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

Nope. -4 to hit with the secondary weapon and -2 to hit with the primary one. The reaction adjustment from dexterity reduces this penalty.

From a great article in Dragon, "Be a Two-Fisted Fighter".

Changed the D&D I saw played, I'll tell you that. Really boosted the in-game economy, since almost every fighter was buying more weapons.