pawsplay's dealbreaker list

[Kishin]

Have you? I think you must be confused, because the GSL is not an open license.

There are two licenses forthcoming. And also, the GSL is more than open enough to allow for third party development. Its not going to allow you to make your own system to the degree the OGL did, but let's face facts. You're not going to get the OGL again. It was far, far too generous from a business standpoint. Its naive to think such a thing could exist the way world is, as I said.

What do you mean by "fallacious?" I didn't specify any particular year. And open gaming systems predate D&D 3e.

Correction then. -Successful- open gaming. Though, perhaps successful is a bad word for it. What I'm getting at is 3E basically made the concept a household name, in much the same fashion as how an obscure band occasionally experiences a significant popularity growth because a band that is hugely influenced by them openly declares them an influence. (I apologize for the potentially overextended and bizarre example, I'm a musician)

As Kamikaze Midget has been saying as of late, the fanbase is more destructive to the game than any design decision. Rather than constructive discussion of the ruleset, we have a ton of fanbois who hate on anyone who doesn't immediately love the new game. Rather than discuss the game for its merits, and have rational discourse on what elements are good and which are poor, we have... garbage.

Welcome to fanbases.

Also, do not pretend like you've been 100% constructive and civil in your own discussion. Some of us remember your ridiculous hyberbole and mockery at the beginning of the thread in which you complained about not being able to accomodate your ranged warlord concept. (I believe it consisted of a great deal of repetition of the word 'war' in various compounds, such as warlord, warforged, etc. To name but the beginning.

 

[Wisdom Penalty]

Nevermind that those who sing 4e's praises are not required at all to provide any amount of rational argument or thought into why, that their arguments tend to fail just as poorly as some of those made against 4e.

Screw. This.

As Kamikaze Midget has been saying as of late, the fanbase is more destructive to the game than any design decision. Rather than constructive discussion of the ruleset, we have a ton of fanbois who hate on anyone who doesn't immediately love the new game. Rather than discuss the game for its merits, and have rational discourse on what elements are good and which are poor, we have... garbage.

Clearly I should not have bothered coming back to EN World.

Screw those positive-thinking sons of guns!

But, um, seriously - I don't think the original post really had anything meaningful in it. It was just a laundry list of...complaints. If you want "rational discourse on what elements are good and which are poor" I'd suggest you try some other threads.

There ain't anything ground-breaking, mildly interesting, or profound in this one. (Yes, I realize I'm including myself in that indictment.)

Fair enough. Move on.


Wis



p.s. Where you gonna go for logical discourse if not here? You name another board that beats EN World on that metric, and I'm a svirfneblin.

 

[muffin_of_chaos]

Nevermind that those who sing 4e's praises are not required at all to provide any amount of rational argument or thought into why, that their arguments tend to fail just as poorly as some of those made against 4e.
Screw. This.
As Kamikaze Midget has been saying as of late, the fanbase is more destructive to the game than any design decision. Rather than constructive discussion of the ruleset, we have a ton of fanbois who hate on anyone who doesn't immediately love the new game. Rather than discuss the game for its merits, and have rational discourse on what elements are good and which are poor, we have...

It's true that a lot of the fanboys choose not to discuss the merits of the game in rational, thoughtful terms. But it's also true that most of the anti-fanboys are also quite abrasive, and this is actually *less* encouraging for rational discussion than just "wai wai wai 4E roxxors."
People who don't appreciate 4th Edition would be much better off in their efforts of presenting clashing viewpoints if they calmly presented their arguments without overwhelming and obvious pessimism. They're angry at WotC, so they don't. And this is their mistake.
I have a lot of problems with 4E (admittedly, far fewer than with pre-4E), but it seems pretty elementary that presenting said problems as Truthful, Immutable and Horrible probably isn't going to spark a thoughtful discussion of ideas.

garbage. Clearly I should not have bothered coming back to EN World.

Yeah, this sort of outburst probably doesn't help.

 

[arscott]

At what, -10 to hit or something? And it was impossible in Basic D&D, and probably OD&D as well.

No, -10 is the penalty for off-hand attacks in 3rd edition. The One that's supposedly so supportive of TWF.

The fact is, in 3e, a character who wasn't built for TWF sucked at it.

In 4e, a character who isn't built for TWF sucks at it.

The only difference is the manner in which they suck.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

The idea that accepting something could ever be more beneficial to the creators then criticism is beyond backwards. By sitting still, nodding, and just politely accepting everything, all you're doing is breeding complacency and the complete lack of ambition. A person should never just sit back and think "Well, things are the best they'll ever be," they should always strive for improvement.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

Furthermore,

People who don't appreciate 4th Edition would be much better off in their efforts of presenting clashing viewpoints if they calmly presented their arguments without overwhelming and obvious pessimism. They're angry at WotC, so they don't.

This is PRECISELY the kind of broad brushing Gnome Works is talking about. It comes off as arrogant, as if you're saying "Oh, I'm sure if they could speak INTELLIGENTLY those people who dislike 4th could have reasonable conversation, but those unreasonable brutes just can't."

 

[eleran]

Nevermind that those who sing 4e's praises are not required at all to provide any amount of rational argument or thought into why, that their arguments tend to fail just as poorly as some of those made against 4e.

Screw. This.

As Kamikaze Midget has been saying as of late, the fanbase is more destructive to the game than any design decision. Rather than constructive discussion of the ruleset, we have a ton of fanbois who hate on anyone who doesn't immediately love the new game. Rather than discuss the game for its merits, and have rational discourse on what elements are good and which are poor, we have... garbage.

Clearly I should not have bothered coming back to EN World.

What's the point? I like/dislike 4e and someone else doesn't. So what? If I make my points and it does/does not fit into their playstyle/sense of immersion/whatever their mind is not going to change and vice versa. It's all just really subjective opinion about what works for each individual poster.

Did you really come to the internets to find people swaying each others opinions thru logically constructed civil discourse? This isn't some Ivy League debate society. All we can do here is post our opinions/thoughts/applause/criticisms anonymously and pretend it matters one whit what we think to anyone else.

I guess this whole idea of internet discussion just boils down to mental masturbation. Everyone has a different idea of what "does it" for them.

 

[hong]

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

"Last night's 'Itchy and Scratchy Show' was, without a doubt, the worst episode ever. Rest assured, I was on the internet within minutes, registering my disgust throughout the world."

 

[Kwalish Kid]

If every other race gets +2 Str and you don't, that's the same as you getting -2. It's called inflation.

Does every race get +2 to Str? If not, then your point still makes no sense.

I'm less interested in comparing D&D 4e to Radiohead than I am to D&D 3e, which was seemingly a very successful game.

Sure, but you aren't the one who has an opportunity to maximize rent-seeking behaviour based on your rights to an intellectual property. Unless you want merely fan-produced RPGs, you're going to have to live with profit-maximizing behaviour from professional RPG manufacturers.

(Of course, the circumstances could change so that profit-maximizing behaviour is different from that of the current system.)

 

[ProfessorCirno]

"Last night's 'Itchy and Scratchy Show' was, without a doubt, the worst episode ever. Rest assured, I was on the internet within minutes, registering my disgust throughout the world."

Did someone on the Dungeons and Dragons website insinuate that someone else was a nerd?

I'm not even sure how that works.

 

[DandD]

This thread is only about 4th edition enthusiasts and 4th edition dislikers throwing mud at each another again, and both sides do it nastily.