pawsplay's dealbreaker list

[pawsplay]

But if they were going to be given so few hit points as to only need one hit to take out anyway, then what's wrong with the idea?

Have you seen the orc bareknuckle death match thread? If it they die in what hit anyway, what do we gain from the 1 hp thing? I can tell you what we lose: the ability of an orc not to go down in one hit. Every single hit will be a finishing blow, which is kind of boring. In the movies, the mooks sometimes take at least a little effort to put down. But in 4e, it would take a different kind of orc.

It's no different than requiring a feat. In 3e, if you tried using two weapons without TWF, you were basically throwing your attacks away. 4e is all about the removal of suboptimal choices, so they took out the ability to use two weapons if you didn't have TWF (or its 4e equivalent).

It is different. Rather than creating options for two weapon fighting, they've trimmed them down. I don't see how you can get any more different than that. It's a pet peeve of mine, since two weapon fighting is, in real life, very effective and commonplace throughout history.

Times change, different monsters become popular.

Yet the frost giant has held up pretty well for the past 1500 years or so. What's wrong with it now?

It's not that pulling out the crossbow is the problem, it's the resource-management game. It's the idea that a low-level wizard can toss one, maybe two spells a day, which is dull and not really evocative of fantasy fiction. While being able to throw spells all the time may be a bit much, it is a step in the right direction.

My opinion is the opposite. In fiction, magic tends to be two or more of slow, dangerous, unreliable, subtle, or exhausting. I can think of very few fantasy characters who could sling magic missiles or the equivalent all day who were truly human.

Illusions are absurdly difficult to adjudicate, and usually wind up causing no end of problems.

And yet appear in virtually every other game on the market. What do they know that the 4e team doesn't? For that matter, why haven't they destroyed my games?

Gnomes didn't have a niche. They were sorta-halfling sorta-dwarf sorta-elf, all balled into one weird conglomerate. Attempting to carve out a niche for the gnome would require messing with at least one of these races' shticks.

Well, they were illusionists, at one point. Or thief-illusionists. And there's the whole badger thing. But here's the thing: I like gnomes. Whether or not they have a completely unique "niche" is less important to me than whether they are appealing. Dragonborn have a niche, and I have little inclination to play one. So as far as I am concerned, dragonborn are taking up real estate that could be occupied by the more attractive, and more traditional, gnome.

Plus, gnomes should not look like Elijiah Woods. They should have big, big noses.

It's once every five minutes, it's 30 feet, and they have to travel through a coterminuous plane to do so.

It's still a super power.

But it beats "I stand there and full-attack it." You have to admit, having more options is rather neat, and gives somebody other than the wizard and cleric some fun things to do and consider. It makes the game a bit more tactical.

I haven't had that problem. But last I heard, they actually took away tripping and disarming, or at least nerfed them. I don't think there's anything "boring" about trying a full attack against, say, a hydra. Or a fire elemental. To me, it's an invented problem.

Maybe somewhere out there are players who slug it out with level 12 warriors all day or something, but I've never seen such a game.

To prevent a bunch of products of the like that we saw in the 3.0 glut. By keeping a bit of a tighter control on what's going on, WotC can at least help out to ensure that the market isn't flooded by a ton of crap.

Hasn't Darwinian selection already taken care of that, pretty much? And it certainly won't protect us from WotC's glut of crap. In fact, now you get free crap in every MM.

 

[tuffnoogies]

My one point of agreement is the open gaming thing. I'm VERY disappointed with the direction 4e is going, and I honestly think they are doing themselves a disservice.

I'm surprised this is such a big deal for so many people. I hardly noticed that 3.x was OG. I couldn't care less if 4e is either. To each their own, eh?

 

[pawsplay]

...Have you read any of the recent news about the licenses? Both are still more than capable of supporting open gaming.

Have you? I think you must be confused, because the GSL is not an open license.

Open gaming wasn't exactly some huge movement before 3E. It seems like talking about it as if it was is a bit fallacious.

What do you mean by "fallacious?" I didn't specify any particular year. And open gaming systems predate D&D 3e.

 

[Hussar]

/snip


I'm less interested in comparing D&D 4e to Radiohead than I am to D&D 3e, which was seemingly a very successful game.

Yup, 3e was successful. But, that's not the same as saying the OG movement was. As far as D&D was concerned, by this time last year, you had less than five companies producing OGL material for D&D. And that's counting Green Ronin which produced what, 5 or 6 Bleeding Edge modules last year for 3.5. Outside the pdf market, there was pretty much no 3rd party D&D support anymore.

So, given that pretty much nobody was supporting D&D anymore, what sense does it make to hope that companies will support 4e?

Never mind the fact that the new GSL is apparently pretty much as open as the old STL, which is what drove the OGL movement in the first place.

 

[Guild Goodknife]

Yeah, i understand that everybody is welcome to share their personal thoughts about 4E with us here...but reading a collection of (highly subjective) dislikes of one member every now and then just becomes a bit... tedious after a while. I mean i like to read lots of different opinions in thematical focused threads, but guys, come on what do we gain from these 'collection of previously posted likes/dislikes of one single member' threads? And what does the OP gain from this thread? Most of his points were discussed to death elsewhere by now...

 

[Wisdom Penalty]

...And what does the OP gain from this thread? Most of his points were discussed to death elsewhere by now...

Whining is cathartic.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Yeah, i understand that everybody is welcome to share their personal thoughts about 4E with us here...but reading a collection of (highly subjective) dislikes of one member every now and then just becomes a bit... tedious after a while. I mean i like to read lots of different opinions in thematical focused threads, but guys, come on what do we gain from these 'collection of previously posted likes/dislikes of one single member' threads? And what does the OP gain from this thread? Most of his points were discussed to death elsewhere by now...

Whining is cathartic.

Or maybe he thought the Fourth Edition Forums was the proper place to post his thoughts on Fourth Edition.

It disturbs me that "disliking somethings about 4e" somehow automatically equates to "whining."

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

Eh, he's not just posting his thoughts, he's negative language and in some cases rather ridiculous hyperbole to make his point.

Maybe that's not whining, but it sure ain't a logical argument, nor does it promote discussion (I'd argue that it shuts it down before it starts, actually).

That said, it's really just a matter of opinion and preference. Paws doesn't like it, so he isn't gonna play. Pretty simple, really.

 

[GnomeWorks]

Eh, he's not just posting his thoughts, he's negative language and in some cases rather ridiculous hyperbole to make his point..

Nevermind that those who sing 4e's praises are not required at all to provide any amount of rational argument or thought into why, that their arguments tend to fail just as poorly as some of those made against 4e.

Screw. This.

As Kamikaze Midget has been saying as of late, the fanbase is more destructive to the game than any design decision. Rather than constructive discussion of the ruleset, we have a ton of fanbois who hate on anyone who doesn't immediately love the new game. Rather than discuss the game for its merits, and have rational discourse on what elements are good and which are poor, we have... garbage.

Clearly I should not have bothered coming back to EN World.

 

[Jim DelRosso]

Have you seen the orc bareknuckle death match thread?

Honestly, that thread supplies pretty much a textbook example of a problem that only exists on the internet, and will almost certainly never come up at the table.

if it they die in what hit anyway, what do we gain from the 1 hp thing? I can tell you what we lose: the ability of an orc not to go down in one hit. Every single hit will be a finishing blow, which is kind of boring. In the movies, the mooks sometimes take at least a little effort to put down. But in 4e, it would take a different kind of orc.

Well, you've kind of solved your own problem: the ability of an orc to take more than one hit isn't lost when there are 4-5 orcs in the MM who can take more than one hit. And even 4e minions can take a little effort to put down, since you don't automatically hit them.

 

[Kishin]

Have you? I think you must be confused, because the GSL is not an open license.

There are two licenses forthcoming. And also, the GSL is more than open enough to allow for third party development. Its not going to allow you to make your own system to the degree the OGL did, but let's face facts. You're not going to get the OGL again. It was far, far too generous from a business standpoint. Its naive to think such a thing could exist the way world is, as I said.

What do you mean by "fallacious?" I didn't specify any particular year. And open gaming systems predate D&D 3e.

Correction then. -Successful- open gaming. Though, perhaps successful is a bad word for it. What I'm getting at is 3E basically made the concept a household name, in much the same fashion as how an obscure band occasionally experiences a significant popularity growth because a band that is hugely influenced by them openly declares them an influence. (I apologize for the potentially overextended and bizarre example, I'm a musician)

As Kamikaze Midget has been saying as of late, the fanbase is more destructive to the game than any design decision. Rather than constructive discussion of the ruleset, we have a ton of fanbois who hate on anyone who doesn't immediately love the new game. Rather than discuss the game for its merits, and have rational discourse on what elements are good and which are poor, we have... garbage.

Welcome to fanbases.

Also, do not pretend like you've been 100% constructive and civil in your own discussion. Some of us remember your ridiculous hyberbole and mockery at the beginning of the thread in which you complained about not being able to accomodate your ranged warlord concept. (I believe it consisted of a great deal of repetition of the word 'war' in various compounds, such as warlord, warforged, etc. To name but the beginning.

 

[Wisdom Penalty]

Nevermind that those who sing 4e's praises are not required at all to provide any amount of rational argument or thought into why, that their arguments tend to fail just as poorly as some of those made against 4e.

Screw. This.

As Kamikaze Midget has been saying as of late, the fanbase is more destructive to the game than any design decision. Rather than constructive discussion of the ruleset, we have a ton of fanbois who hate on anyone who doesn't immediately love the new game. Rather than discuss the game for its merits, and have rational discourse on what elements are good and which are poor, we have... garbage.

Clearly I should not have bothered coming back to EN World.

Screw those positive-thinking sons of guns!

But, um, seriously - I don't think the original post really had anything meaningful in it. It was just a laundry list of...complaints. If you want "rational discourse on what elements are good and which are poor" I'd suggest you try some other threads.

There ain't anything ground-breaking, mildly interesting, or profound in this one. (Yes, I realize I'm including myself in that indictment.)

Fair enough. Move on.


Wis



p.s. Where you gonna go for logical discourse if not here? You name another board that beats EN World on that metric, and I'm a svirfneblin.

 

[muffin_of_chaos]

Nevermind that those who sing 4e's praises are not required at all to provide any amount of rational argument or thought into why, that their arguments tend to fail just as poorly as some of those made against 4e.
Screw. This.
As Kamikaze Midget has been saying as of late, the fanbase is more destructive to the game than any design decision. Rather than constructive discussion of the ruleset, we have a ton of fanbois who hate on anyone who doesn't immediately love the new game. Rather than discuss the game for its merits, and have rational discourse on what elements are good and which are poor, we have...

It's true that a lot of the fanboys choose not to discuss the merits of the game in rational, thoughtful terms. But it's also true that most of the anti-fanboys are also quite abrasive, and this is actually *less* encouraging for rational discussion than just "wai wai wai 4E roxxors."
People who don't appreciate 4th Edition would be much better off in their efforts of presenting clashing viewpoints if they calmly presented their arguments without overwhelming and obvious pessimism. They're angry at WotC, so they don't. And this is their mistake.
I have a lot of problems with 4E (admittedly, far fewer than with pre-4E), but it seems pretty elementary that presenting said problems as Truthful, Immutable and Horrible probably isn't going to spark a thoughtful discussion of ideas.

garbage. Clearly I should not have bothered coming back to EN World.

Yeah, this sort of outburst probably doesn't help.

 

[arscott]

At what, -10 to hit or something? And it was impossible in Basic D&D, and probably OD&D as well.

No, -10 is the penalty for off-hand attacks in 3rd edition. The One that's supposedly so supportive of TWF.

The fact is, in 3e, a character who wasn't built for TWF sucked at it.

In 4e, a character who isn't built for TWF sucks at it.

The only difference is the manner in which they suck.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

The idea that accepting something could ever be more beneficial to the creators then criticism is beyond backwards. By sitting still, nodding, and just politely accepting everything, all you're doing is breeding complacency and the complete lack of ambition. A person should never just sit back and think "Well, things are the best they'll ever be," they should always strive for improvement.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

Furthermore,

People who don't appreciate 4th Edition would be much better off in their efforts of presenting clashing viewpoints if they calmly presented their arguments without overwhelming and obvious pessimism. They're angry at WotC, so they don't.

This is PRECISELY the kind of broad brushing Gnome Works is talking about. It comes off as arrogant, as if you're saying "Oh, I'm sure if they could speak INTELLIGENTLY those people who dislike 4th could have reasonable conversation, but those unreasonable brutes just can't."

 

[eleran]

Nevermind that those who sing 4e's praises are not required at all to provide any amount of rational argument or thought into why, that their arguments tend to fail just as poorly as some of those made against 4e.

Screw. This.

As Kamikaze Midget has been saying as of late, the fanbase is more destructive to the game than any design decision. Rather than constructive discussion of the ruleset, we have a ton of fanbois who hate on anyone who doesn't immediately love the new game. Rather than discuss the game for its merits, and have rational discourse on what elements are good and which are poor, we have... garbage.

Clearly I should not have bothered coming back to EN World.

What's the point? I like/dislike 4e and someone else doesn't. So what? If I make my points and it does/does not fit into their playstyle/sense of immersion/whatever their mind is not going to change and vice versa. It's all just really subjective opinion about what works for each individual poster.

Did you really come to the internets to find people swaying each others opinions thru logically constructed civil discourse? This isn't some Ivy League debate society. All we can do here is post our opinions/thoughts/applause/criticisms anonymously and pretend it matters one whit what we think to anyone else.

I guess this whole idea of internet discussion just boils down to mental masturbation. Everyone has a different idea of what "does it" for them.

 

[hong]

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

"Last night's 'Itchy and Scratchy Show' was, without a doubt, the worst episode ever. Rest assured, I was on the internet within minutes, registering my disgust throughout the world."

 

[Kwalish Kid]

If every other race gets +2 Str and you don't, that's the same as you getting -2. It's called inflation.

Does every race get +2 to Str? If not, then your point still makes no sense.

I'm less interested in comparing D&D 4e to Radiohead than I am to D&D 3e, which was seemingly a very successful game.

Sure, but you aren't the one who has an opportunity to maximize rent-seeking behaviour based on your rights to an intellectual property. Unless you want merely fan-produced RPGs, you're going to have to live with profit-maximizing behaviour from professional RPG manufacturers.

(Of course, the circumstances could change so that profit-maximizing behaviour is different from that of the current system.)

 

[ProfessorCirno]

"Last night's 'Itchy and Scratchy Show' was, without a doubt, the worst episode ever. Rest assured, I was on the internet within minutes, registering my disgust throughout the world."

Did someone on the Dungeons and Dragons website insinuate that someone else was a nerd?

I'm not even sure how that works.

 

[DandD]

This thread is only about 4th edition enthusiasts and 4th edition dislikers throwing mud at each another again, and both sides do it nastily.