MythandLore
First Post
I like paper, give me paper!
Paper don't hurt my eyes so bad.
Paper don't hurt my eyes so bad.
PDF vs Print materials
Well, i broke down and bought BoEM2 and binded it, $10 was the final cost. I think it was worth it. I still like some of my books(PHB, FRCS) to be hardbound and in color. However, for this color really isn't necessary.
Also, if my copy of BoEM gets trashed, I just print another. Also, I don't agree about the gamers not having Internet access. I think most of them have Internet or have access from somewhere to get on the Internet. I think gamers in America probably have around a 75-85% rate of being online. Just my thoughts.
Also, if my copy of BoEM gets trashed, I just print another. Also, I don't agree about the gamers not having Internet access. I think most of them have Internet or have access from somewhere to get on the Internet. I think gamers in America probably have around a 75-85% rate of being online. Just my thoughts.
Agamon
Adventurer
1. I am a grognard, I just happen to be a computer geek, too.
2. All of my .pdf books are paper (or they are now, anyway). They don't make my eyes bleed, nor do they bleed my printer (over 200 pages of pdf's printed, in color, I might add, and on top of other things I've printed, and I'm still on the original ink cartridges).
I downloaded Wild Spellcraft today (very well done, RW) and while waiting for the download for that to start, I found Campaign Suite, a nifty-looking program that is much more like what Master Tools should be.
Being Canadian, I hate ordering things from the States, things tend to be 5 times more expensive then they should be, but this download ordering is tres cool!
BTW, Talon, every single one of my gaming buddies (which, according to my address book, numbers 22) are online. While I realize not every gamer access to the internet, what makes you think that most gamers don't have net access?
2. All of my .pdf books are paper (or they are now, anyway). They don't make my eyes bleed, nor do they bleed my printer (over 200 pages of pdf's printed, in color, I might add, and on top of other things I've printed, and I'm still on the original ink cartridges).
I downloaded Wild Spellcraft today (very well done, RW) and while waiting for the download for that to start, I found Campaign Suite, a nifty-looking program that is much more like what Master Tools should be.
Being Canadian, I hate ordering things from the States, things tend to be 5 times more expensive then they should be, but this download ordering is tres cool!
BTW, Talon, every single one of my gaming buddies (which, according to my address book, numbers 22) are online. While I realize not every gamer access to the internet, what makes you think that most gamers don't have net access?
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TalonComics
First Post
Agamon said:
I'm basing it on customers that come in the store actually.
Of course this could be a regional thing but it's somewhere in the 35/40% with internet to 65/60% without. I deal with a lot of college students and many of them are limited to campus access.
Heck, I wish more had access! It's just around here it's still not cheap enough for all college students to do yet. Maybe in a couple of years?
I'm sure Wizards of the Coast has some stats somewhere regarding this. I wish we could see them.
~Derek
www.taloncomics.com
Your Local Gaming Store Online!
Sir Osis of Liver
Explorer
I've picked up book of eldrich might, if thought could kill, the demon gods fane, and wild spellcraft, at a combined cost of $20.
I've also picked up varios free bees in cluding modules, web enhancements,magazines, character sheets, and out of print tsr stuff. It takes all of a minute and a half to download, and maybe fifteen minutes for a book like eldrich might to print. Ink consumption isn't bad either. I love PDF's! It may not have the same great "feal" as a print version but to have a product that quick and cheap, I'll survive.
I've also picked up varios free bees in cluding modules, web enhancements,magazines, character sheets, and out of print tsr stuff. It takes all of a minute and a half to download, and maybe fifteen minutes for a book like eldrich might to print. Ink consumption isn't bad either. I love PDF's! It may not have the same great "feal" as a print version but to have a product that quick and cheap, I'll survive.
Cergorach
The Laughing One
I love both PDF and Print products, they are actully not mutally exclusive as some seem to think. With PDF I can actually order and read a product with only a few minutes between the actions, the same can't be said for print produts (yet, beam me up scotty ;-). As a DM that doesn't ever run an adventure straight from the book, it also allows me to customize game material (copy paste). On the flipside, making a printed version of a PDF that equals the version that is Printed is a lot of work, can be expensive, and sometimes is plain impossible (think PHB, DMG, MM, etc.). Printed products are often far simpler to obtain (wait a few months, go to game-store, and spend a few bucks).
Davelozzi:
1.) BoEMII is $7 and contains 64 pages and should be about $12.95 (guess) for the printed version.
2.) I don't mind it if someone doesn't like something, everyone's entitled to his/her opinion. But please be quiet if you do not know what your talking about (no offense). Monte did not include a readme file for nothing, it clearly indicates that you should print BoEMII (or any pdf for tht matter) in batches, otherwise the big spooling file that the printing action will generate will slow your computer down to no end. And if i remember correctly, it also mentioned that you might want to print in greys only to spare your expensive color cardridge. Monte also starts to explain how to remove the headers and images, but he seems to forget that one needs the full version of Acrobat for that (a rather expensive product).
3.) Hearing about the washed out an blueisch look of your prints i think that your color cardridge is almost empty (just wait for the quality of the prints when it's empty ;-).
4.) This seems a clear case of RTFM (Read The Fncking Manual), if you had read the readme file this could have aleviated your annoyances. And your giving the PDF the blame because YOU don't know how your printer works (or when the color cradrige is empty).
TalonComics:
1.) It seems that your figure is not really correct, if you base it only on gamers that visit your shop. A lot of gamers online do'n't visit shops anymore, but order online (someone made a Homer ;-). From a recent study (i haven't got a clue how accurate those are) it became clear that 50% of america is online, in 'civilized' europe, that percentage is probably a little higher. I also think that gamers are from the part of society that is a bit wealthier than the rest, thus even further raising the score. But that doesn't indicate that many of those want to order digital products.
2.) Of course it's easier to post such PDFs to Warez sites, but that doesn't stop Printed books being posted on Warez sites. In the first instance such books are far larger than the printed books (dozens of MBs for large books), that is until someone finishes an OCR of the file. This isn't something you probably want to hear, but 90% of the books you sell are out there on the Web, the most popular already being OCRed...
3.) Printed books are probably still selling a lot better than PDF versions of such books, but that's easy, so did CDs when they when first introduced. Books have a long history (hundreds of years), one can't expect people to give that up overnight. I also think that the right tools aren't available yet to make PDFs able to compete with Printed books (they are comming though). Also the startup cost for a PDF product is far lower than for a Printed product (ask any publisher), no problems with distribution (if you are computer literate that is), and profit from the sale of a single pdf unit is far higher than from a printed unit.
4.) I'm also a retailer (a VERY small one at that) and am also not able to sell any PDFs at the moment. That doesn't stop me from seeing the plusses of PDF products, i think that the people that are gained through the use of PDFs outweighs the people lost through PDFs (hope that that makes sense)...
One complaint though, why do most pdf publishes seem to forget that there's a world beyond America? Down here in europe, we use A4 for standard paper format instead of Letter!
A4 (210mm*297mm)
Letter (215.9mm*279.4mm)
As one can see Letter sized do not really fit that well on an A4 (missing 6mm). The format i use for Intrnational PDFs is Custom (210mm*279.4mm), when printed this should fit both on A4 and Letter without a problem.
I just invested (heavily) in my very first Laptop (haven't received it yet), i can understand that many students can't afford a Laptop. But these days many families have computers at home, thus having your book collection on a (couple) of CD(s) might save your back. You can burn CDs at a lot of location for very little cash, or can even buy a CDburner (not that expensive anymore).
I for example am currently at work (standby shift) and am preparing my next DM session. I love the ability to just search my Forgotten Realms database (all the FR products), copy and paste all the pieces i will use, etc...
Mr.C
the pdf junkie
Davelozzi:
1.) BoEMII is $7 and contains 64 pages and should be about $12.95 (guess) for the printed version.
2.) I don't mind it if someone doesn't like something, everyone's entitled to his/her opinion. But please be quiet if you do not know what your talking about (no offense). Monte did not include a readme file for nothing, it clearly indicates that you should print BoEMII (or any pdf for tht matter) in batches, otherwise the big spooling file that the printing action will generate will slow your computer down to no end. And if i remember correctly, it also mentioned that you might want to print in greys only to spare your expensive color cardridge. Monte also starts to explain how to remove the headers and images, but he seems to forget that one needs the full version of Acrobat for that (a rather expensive product).
3.) Hearing about the washed out an blueisch look of your prints i think that your color cardridge is almost empty (just wait for the quality of the prints when it's empty ;-).
4.) This seems a clear case of RTFM (Read The Fncking Manual), if you had read the readme file this could have aleviated your annoyances. And your giving the PDF the blame because YOU don't know how your printer works (or when the color cradrige is empty).
TalonComics:
1.) It seems that your figure is not really correct, if you base it only on gamers that visit your shop. A lot of gamers online do'n't visit shops anymore, but order online (someone made a Homer ;-). From a recent study (i haven't got a clue how accurate those are) it became clear that 50% of america is online, in 'civilized' europe, that percentage is probably a little higher. I also think that gamers are from the part of society that is a bit wealthier than the rest, thus even further raising the score. But that doesn't indicate that many of those want to order digital products.
2.) Of course it's easier to post such PDFs to Warez sites, but that doesn't stop Printed books being posted on Warez sites. In the first instance such books are far larger than the printed books (dozens of MBs for large books), that is until someone finishes an OCR of the file. This isn't something you probably want to hear, but 90% of the books you sell are out there on the Web, the most popular already being OCRed...
3.) Printed books are probably still selling a lot better than PDF versions of such books, but that's easy, so did CDs when they when first introduced. Books have a long history (hundreds of years), one can't expect people to give that up overnight. I also think that the right tools aren't available yet to make PDFs able to compete with Printed books (they are comming though). Also the startup cost for a PDF product is far lower than for a Printed product (ask any publisher), no problems with distribution (if you are computer literate that is), and profit from the sale of a single pdf unit is far higher than from a printed unit.
4.) I'm also a retailer (a VERY small one at that) and am also not able to sell any PDFs at the moment. That doesn't stop me from seeing the plusses of PDF products, i think that the people that are gained through the use of PDFs outweighs the people lost through PDFs (hope that that makes sense)...
One complaint though, why do most pdf publishes seem to forget that there's a world beyond America? Down here in europe, we use A4 for standard paper format instead of Letter!
A4 (210mm*297mm)
Letter (215.9mm*279.4mm)
As one can see Letter sized do not really fit that well on an A4 (missing 6mm). The format i use for Intrnational PDFs is Custom (210mm*279.4mm), when printed this should fit both on A4 and Letter without a problem.
I just invested (heavily) in my very first Laptop (haven't received it yet), i can understand that many students can't afford a Laptop. But these days many families have computers at home, thus having your book collection on a (couple) of CD(s) might save your back. You can burn CDs at a lot of location for very little cash, or can even buy a CDburner (not that expensive anymore).
I for example am currently at work (standby shift) and am preparing my next DM session. I love the ability to just search my Forgotten Realms database (all the FR products), copy and paste all the pieces i will use, etc...
Mr.C
the pdf junkie
Talon, are you talking about ANY Internet Access or Broadband?
If you live in a college area, at least where I go to college, everyone just about has a computer of their own. Also, at least my state college, they have free dial-up access and many of the local apartments have the attempt at T1 access(T1 for 250+ people doesn't work). At a college, I would imagine the number of people online are in the 90s...E-mail at my college(it's a bit techie for a state school) is the normal way of getting ahold of your teachers. Assignments and notes are posted online in Powerpoint form, people have access to $7,00-$10,000 B&W lasers for printing PDFs(the only reason I buy them)...
Then again, it could be a regional thing...start asking customers if they have some kind of Internet link at home maybe tell them about PDFs(if you sell them at your website), I think you will be surprised at how many do.
If you are basing this on store traffic VS your website then you might notice a difference because a lot of people are still wary of buying online. Plus, you are contention with bamm.com and amazon.com who sell RPG books cheaper then most places..
Gariig
If you live in a college area, at least where I go to college, everyone just about has a computer of their own. Also, at least my state college, they have free dial-up access and many of the local apartments have the attempt at T1 access(T1 for 250+ people doesn't work). At a college, I would imagine the number of people online are in the 90s...E-mail at my college(it's a bit techie for a state school) is the normal way of getting ahold of your teachers. Assignments and notes are posted online in Powerpoint form, people have access to $7,00-$10,000 B&W lasers for printing PDFs(the only reason I buy them)...
Then again, it could be a regional thing...start asking customers if they have some kind of Internet link at home maybe tell them about PDFs(if you sell them at your website), I think you will be surprised at how many do.
If you are basing this on store traffic VS your website then you might notice a difference because a lot of people are still wary of buying online. Plus, you are contention with bamm.com and amazon.com who sell RPG books cheaper then most places..
Gariig
Cergorach said:
You know, have you thought about starting a small venture doing reformatting of the files for international players who want A4 format? You'd need to get permission to alter and redistribute the files from the publishers, but as long as they still get their money, they would probably be willing to share a little of the profit with you, maybe a 50 cent or 1 dollar markup per file. Recruit a few fluent bilingual helpers from a variety of languages and you could probably make a nice side business doing translations and reformatting of pdf products for the international market.
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Ravellion
serves Gnome Master
Cergorach said:
Hear, hear! I am still somewhat bugged that there isn't a web enhancement or insert for making D&D metric. It is a fact though that Europeans, even though a larger number has web access, are a lot more shy about making purchases on the web. But then, the higher population density also means that gaming stores are almost universally covering a larger population, and are closer to large populations as well.
Rav
Psychotic Dreamer
First Post
Personally I like PDF's in someways, but in general I don't like ones I have to pay for. Its a lot of wear and tear on my printer. Second last year I had a hard drive crash and lost 4 or 5 PDF's I had bought. At the time I didn't have a CDR drive so I couldn't back them up there. Plus in general I prefer a nice professionally bound book.
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