Manbearcat
Legend
I've been MIA for a wee bit so I apologize for chasing this thread's tail in advance.
Precisely and amen to both of these. If you want an exercise in masochism and you accordingly build a PC that is thematically incoherent with how you plan to actualize him and tactically adversarial to how you plan on playing him...then by all means...have it. However, I don't know what point that proves about the ruleset. I do, however, suspect that it likely will earn you some cross looks (again, unless you all are just having a laugh) at the table from your fellow players and GM.
Before I continue, one thing I will say is that I keep seeing two schools of thought asserting part orthogonal, part countervailing (but all excluded middle) theses:
1 - If you have a default setting/setup (in this case theme), it is not hard-coded, but it is implied (by the mere nature of having a default setting within a ruleset, perhaps by the designers, perhaps by the gaming culture at large) that there can be no deviation from that orthodoxy. That seems to manifest a lot in varying topics but has really grown legs as folks are terribly concerned about what is going to be "Core" in 5e. I also see this used as an attack on 4e.
2 - All orthodoxies and defaults must be rigid and unmalleable (definitionally). Therefore, if there is a presumed orthodoxy or default yet it is not absolutely rigid and malleable, then it ceases to be what it claims to be; orthodoxy or default. This doesn't seem to be an attack; but something of a critique of 4e that is happening now.
I don't agree with either of those positions and certainly don't agree with them with regards to 4e. 4e does have some classes with considerably greater thematic robustness, depth, rigidity hard-coded into them. Deviation from that default orthodoxy is difficult (but doable). Those are typically the Divine and Primal classes; Paladin, Avenger, Invoker, Barbarian, Druid, Shaman (however, the Warlord can probably be placed here as well). There is a lot of loaded thematics built into those classes. However, occupying the same space is the Fighter, the Rogue, the Ranger, the Sorceror. There are loaded thematics built into those classes, but there is considerably greater archetype malleability within. There are orthodoxies and defaults. They do exist and are clear and present (as below) by penetration of the classes mechanics and associated fiction. However, deviation does persist...and it doesn't persist because the associated fluff/fiction is non-existant or ultimately meaningless...it persists because there is not perfect rigidity in the built-in thematic orthodox...there is design space for shaping...and that shaping is most often a willful, organized act.
So lets get back to the question at hand. Are there thematics tightly tied into some classes; eg. is there an orthodox setup and how does 4e's mechanics distill/promote this setup from the primordial ooze of all possible setups?
Personally, in today's popular culture, when I think of Captain America when I think of the prototypical Paladin. Yes, there are some contextual and color differences, but I'll follow Thomas Jefferson's lead here and expect that a paladin will reflect the times. Consider his thematic role in the recent Avengers movie; his oath is 'god and country', his armor is his shield, and power source is supernatural (super soldier serum) but his true source is his inherent courage, devotion to cause and sacrifice. Take the following "classic" Paladin or knightly virtues/ideals:
- Unyieldingly pursue and destroy evil (especially supernatural evil) whereever you may find it.
- Be stout of form, heart, and mind.
- Be ever vigil.
- The shame of dishonor before your god/cause or failure in your oath ceaselessly drives your pursuit of honor.
- Your faith/oath bulwarks your courage.
- Self-sacrifice over self-interest.
- May your faith and your armor protect you, and if not, die unflinchingly for your noble cause.
- Protect all under your charge and those who cannot defend themselves.
- Lead from the front.
- Be a steadfast example and inspire those who have lost hope.
- Be a man of action.
Now. Let us take a close look at the features and powers fundamental to the Paladin class and determine how they will turn out in play (This thread appears to have topically merged with the other thread so I'm going to take a crack at a different class/theme - Swashbuckler - and take a look at how a real PC has manifested in my game...but that is for the other thread). We have:
Primary Attributes: Strength, Charisma, Wisdom.
HPs and Healing Surges: Top tier HPs and Healing Surges.
Proficiencies: All armor and shields. Military melee and simple ranged.
Bonuses to Defenses: All.
Implements: Holy Symbol.
Primary Keywords associated with Powers: Divine, Healing, Implement, Radiant, Weapon, Zone.
Primary Range of Attacks: Melee 1 or Close Burst.
Skills: Religion as default and Diplomacy, Endurance, Heal, History, Insight, Intimidate.
Contextually, before even talking about specific effects of powers, on that alone, what picture does this paint as a default/orthodox setup? What play is the aggregation of these mechanics expected to produce and incentivize? Stout of physical form and of heart, indomitable and willful, perceptive, socially keen/savvy/understanding, leads from the front, driven by faith, man of action, calls forth the power of his god and fights where he stands, mends the afflicted.
Now. Lets take a very default power/feature layout through level 6.
Channel Divinity (Holy Smite): Your weapon fills with divine radiant energy, which bursts forth as you strike your enemy. That driven by faith thing? That physically manifests as a gift from your God throught the conduit of your indomitable will and powerful, virtuous presence.
Divine Challenge: You boldly confront a nearby enemy, searing it with divine light if it ignores your challenge. You're leading from the front. You're a man of action, stout of form, heart and mind. You interpose your will and yourself between your enemies and your allies.
Lay on Hands: Your divine touch instantly heals wounds. You give up your own life essence (Healing Surges) to ease the ailments and mend the wounds of the afflicted.
Valiant Strike: You attack a foe, gaining strength from your conviction as the odds against you rise. As your foes mount against you, your stout heart, indomitable will, and skill-at-arms is bulwarked further by your faith.
Bolstering Strike: You attack your foe without mercy or reprieve, and your accuracy is rewarded with a divine gift of vigor. Remember that aspect of HPs that Gygax referred to as divine intervention? Well, you actually have this, on call when you use this power.
Radiant Smite: Your weapon glows with a pearly luminescence. Enemies shrink from its pure light, especially creatures of supernatural evil such as demons, devils and undead. Big weapon attack that channels, divine, radiant fury into your foe? Who are your sworn enemies? Are they vulnerable to this? Yes, they are.
Glorious Charge: You wade into battle and urge your allies to greater heights. You charge into the midst of your foes. Your allies that behold you are inspired by mettle and sacrifice (they gain HPs).
Martyr’s Blessing: You step into an attack made against an adjacent ally to save your comrade. CB1 Immediate Reaction. You're hit instead of your ally. Lead from the Front. Sacrifice.
Strength from Valor: As foes encircle you, you fight all the harder. This is Valiant Strike and Bolstering Strike together and on steroids. Weapon vs Fort, enemies in CB1, 5 temp HP * # targets hit.
Hallowed Circle: You wave your hand through the air, and a wide circle of faintly glowing symbols appears around you, damaging enemies and protecting allies within its confines. Fight where you stand on the strength of your oath to your god. Your allies are inspired here. Your enemies die here.
Bond of Protection: You create a spiritual link between yourself and an ally that allows you to partially shield your friend from harm. 1st layer of prayer club; you shield your allies with divine protection. 2nd layer of prayer club; should they be hurt, you take the burden of their suffering and injury upon yourself instead.
Given the aggregation of all of these mechanics, what theme of play is incentivized and what would you expect to manifest during play if not:
- Unyieldingly pursue and destroy evil (especially supernatural evil) whereever you may find it.
- Be stout of form, heart, and mind.
- Be ever vigil.
- The shame of dishonor before your god/cause or failure in your oath ceaselessly drives your pursuit of honor.
- Your faith/oath bulwarks your courage.
- Self-sacrifice over self-interest.
- May your faith and your armor protect you, and if not, die unflinchingly for your noble cause.
- Protect all under your charge and those who cannot defend themselves.
- Lead from the front.
- Be a steadfast example and inspire those who have lost hope.
- Be a man of action.
Precisely and amen to both of these. If you want an exercise in masochism and you accordingly build a PC that is thematically incoherent with how you plan to actualize him and tactically adversarial to how you plan on playing him...then by all means...have it. However, I don't know what point that proves about the ruleset. I do, however, suspect that it likely will earn you some cross looks (again, unless you all are just having a laugh) at the table from your fellow players and GM.
Before I continue, one thing I will say is that I keep seeing two schools of thought asserting part orthogonal, part countervailing (but all excluded middle) theses:
1 - If you have a default setting/setup (in this case theme), it is not hard-coded, but it is implied (by the mere nature of having a default setting within a ruleset, perhaps by the designers, perhaps by the gaming culture at large) that there can be no deviation from that orthodoxy. That seems to manifest a lot in varying topics but has really grown legs as folks are terribly concerned about what is going to be "Core" in 5e. I also see this used as an attack on 4e.
2 - All orthodoxies and defaults must be rigid and unmalleable (definitionally). Therefore, if there is a presumed orthodoxy or default yet it is not absolutely rigid and malleable, then it ceases to be what it claims to be; orthodoxy or default. This doesn't seem to be an attack; but something of a critique of 4e that is happening now.
I don't agree with either of those positions and certainly don't agree with them with regards to 4e. 4e does have some classes with considerably greater thematic robustness, depth, rigidity hard-coded into them. Deviation from that default orthodoxy is difficult (but doable). Those are typically the Divine and Primal classes; Paladin, Avenger, Invoker, Barbarian, Druid, Shaman (however, the Warlord can probably be placed here as well). There is a lot of loaded thematics built into those classes. However, occupying the same space is the Fighter, the Rogue, the Ranger, the Sorceror. There are loaded thematics built into those classes, but there is considerably greater archetype malleability within. There are orthodoxies and defaults. They do exist and are clear and present (as below) by penetration of the classes mechanics and associated fiction. However, deviation does persist...and it doesn't persist because the associated fluff/fiction is non-existant or ultimately meaningless...it persists because there is not perfect rigidity in the built-in thematic orthodox...there is design space for shaping...and that shaping is most often a willful, organized act.
So lets get back to the question at hand. Are there thematics tightly tied into some classes; eg. is there an orthodox setup and how does 4e's mechanics distill/promote this setup from the primordial ooze of all possible setups?
Personally, in today's popular culture, when I think of Captain America when I think of the prototypical Paladin. Yes, there are some contextual and color differences, but I'll follow Thomas Jefferson's lead here and expect that a paladin will reflect the times. Consider his thematic role in the recent Avengers movie; his oath is 'god and country', his armor is his shield, and power source is supernatural (super soldier serum) but his true source is his inherent courage, devotion to cause and sacrifice. Take the following "classic" Paladin or knightly virtues/ideals:
- Unyieldingly pursue and destroy evil (especially supernatural evil) whereever you may find it.
- Be stout of form, heart, and mind.
- Be ever vigil.
- The shame of dishonor before your god/cause or failure in your oath ceaselessly drives your pursuit of honor.
- Your faith/oath bulwarks your courage.
- Self-sacrifice over self-interest.
- May your faith and your armor protect you, and if not, die unflinchingly for your noble cause.
- Protect all under your charge and those who cannot defend themselves.
- Lead from the front.
- Be a steadfast example and inspire those who have lost hope.
- Be a man of action.
Now. Let us take a close look at the features and powers fundamental to the Paladin class and determine how they will turn out in play (This thread appears to have topically merged with the other thread so I'm going to take a crack at a different class/theme - Swashbuckler - and take a look at how a real PC has manifested in my game...but that is for the other thread). We have:
Primary Attributes: Strength, Charisma, Wisdom.
HPs and Healing Surges: Top tier HPs and Healing Surges.
Proficiencies: All armor and shields. Military melee and simple ranged.
Bonuses to Defenses: All.
Implements: Holy Symbol.
Primary Keywords associated with Powers: Divine, Healing, Implement, Radiant, Weapon, Zone.
Primary Range of Attacks: Melee 1 or Close Burst.
Skills: Religion as default and Diplomacy, Endurance, Heal, History, Insight, Intimidate.
Contextually, before even talking about specific effects of powers, on that alone, what picture does this paint as a default/orthodox setup? What play is the aggregation of these mechanics expected to produce and incentivize? Stout of physical form and of heart, indomitable and willful, perceptive, socially keen/savvy/understanding, leads from the front, driven by faith, man of action, calls forth the power of his god and fights where he stands, mends the afflicted.
Now. Lets take a very default power/feature layout through level 6.
Channel Divinity (Holy Smite): Your weapon fills with divine radiant energy, which bursts forth as you strike your enemy. That driven by faith thing? That physically manifests as a gift from your God throught the conduit of your indomitable will and powerful, virtuous presence.
Divine Challenge: You boldly confront a nearby enemy, searing it with divine light if it ignores your challenge. You're leading from the front. You're a man of action, stout of form, heart and mind. You interpose your will and yourself between your enemies and your allies.
Lay on Hands: Your divine touch instantly heals wounds. You give up your own life essence (Healing Surges) to ease the ailments and mend the wounds of the afflicted.
Valiant Strike: You attack a foe, gaining strength from your conviction as the odds against you rise. As your foes mount against you, your stout heart, indomitable will, and skill-at-arms is bulwarked further by your faith.
Bolstering Strike: You attack your foe without mercy or reprieve, and your accuracy is rewarded with a divine gift of vigor. Remember that aspect of HPs that Gygax referred to as divine intervention? Well, you actually have this, on call when you use this power.
Radiant Smite: Your weapon glows with a pearly luminescence. Enemies shrink from its pure light, especially creatures of supernatural evil such as demons, devils and undead. Big weapon attack that channels, divine, radiant fury into your foe? Who are your sworn enemies? Are they vulnerable to this? Yes, they are.
Glorious Charge: You wade into battle and urge your allies to greater heights. You charge into the midst of your foes. Your allies that behold you are inspired by mettle and sacrifice (they gain HPs).
Martyr’s Blessing: You step into an attack made against an adjacent ally to save your comrade. CB1 Immediate Reaction. You're hit instead of your ally. Lead from the Front. Sacrifice.
Strength from Valor: As foes encircle you, you fight all the harder. This is Valiant Strike and Bolstering Strike together and on steroids. Weapon vs Fort, enemies in CB1, 5 temp HP * # targets hit.
Hallowed Circle: You wave your hand through the air, and a wide circle of faintly glowing symbols appears around you, damaging enemies and protecting allies within its confines. Fight where you stand on the strength of your oath to your god. Your allies are inspired here. Your enemies die here.
Bond of Protection: You create a spiritual link between yourself and an ally that allows you to partially shield your friend from harm. 1st layer of prayer club; you shield your allies with divine protection. 2nd layer of prayer club; should they be hurt, you take the burden of their suffering and injury upon yourself instead.
Given the aggregation of all of these mechanics, what theme of play is incentivized and what would you expect to manifest during play if not:
- Unyieldingly pursue and destroy evil (especially supernatural evil) whereever you may find it.
- Be stout of form, heart, and mind.
- Be ever vigil.
- The shame of dishonor before your god/cause or failure in your oath ceaselessly drives your pursuit of honor.
- Your faith/oath bulwarks your courage.
- Self-sacrifice over self-interest.
- May your faith and your armor protect you, and if not, die unflinchingly for your noble cause.
- Protect all under your charge and those who cannot defend themselves.
- Lead from the front.
- Be a steadfast example and inspire those who have lost hope.
- Be a man of action.
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