D&D 5E People didn't like the Psionic Talent Die

[doctorbadwolf]

Sure

But it has all the fiddly resource stuff Crawford says the playtest fedback hates.

This is what I am sensing is the issue. The design team doesn't have a resource mechanic for psionics.

• The majority of the fans don't want a new mechanic for a resource.
• The majority of fans want cool stuff for psionics
• Cool stuff need a resource to limit them (cantrips are weak)
• They are afraid to plop a spell table and spell list on psionic warriors and soul knives.

The thing that bugs me about dnd, and not just 5e, is the idea that cool stuff needs limited resource management. Throwing a rock or chair or whatever at someone isn't necessarily more powerful than a longbow, it doesn't need to cost more than shooting with a longbow.

Add telekinesis to the psychic warrior, and it's everything I could want from such a subclass. If it has to have a "weak" (ie you can make ranged weapon attacks with objects affected by your telekinesis as part of the attack action, and are proficient with them) version, and a resource limited more powerful version (x/short rest you can increase the size of object your can move with your mind), then that's fine, but I don't need it.

A telekinetic subclass doesn't have to have limited resources.

 

[Minigiant]

The thing that bugs me about dnd, and not just 5e, is the idea that cool stuff needs limited resource management. Throwing a rock or chair or whatever at someone isn't necessarily more powerful than a longbow, it doesn't need to cost more than shooting with a longbow.

Add telekinesis to the psychic warrior, and it's everything I could want from such a subclass. If it has to have a "weak" (ie you can make ranged weapon attacks with objects affected by your telekinesis as part of the attack action, and are proficient with them) version, and a resource limited more powerful version (x/short rest you can increase the size of object your can move with your mind), then that's fine, but I don't need it.

A telekinetic subclass doesn't have to have limited resources.

This issue is
Is a rogue who can just create daggers and have Xft of telepathy good enough for a subclass?

I have a rogue player in my game. He has two daggers and can speak.
Is it worth not having his assassin subclass features to draw his weapons and speak without his hands and mouth? For most people, no. It's not.

It's gotta have teleports, and tearing memories out people's head, and turning invisible, and leaping several feet, and creating shields of force, and floating things in the air, and crushing foes with bends of telekinetic force, and mind flaying people into insanity. Cool stuff.

Cool stuff past level 5 costs resources*

*unless you are a fighter and you just attack the monster a third or fourth or fifth or sixth time.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

This issue is
Is a rogue who can just create daggers and have Xft of telepathy good enough for a subclass?

I have a rogue player in my game. He has two daggers and can speak.
Is it worth not having his assassin subclass features to draw his weapons and speak without his hands and mouth? For most people, no. It's not.

It's gotta have teleports, and tearing memories out people's head, and turning invisible, and leaping several feet, and creating shields of force, and floating things in the air, and crushing foes with bends of telekinetic force, and mind flaying people into insanity. Cool stuff.

Cool stuff past level 5 costs resources*

*unless you are a fighter and you just attack the monster a third or fourth or fifth or sixth time.

I get really tired of people not fully reading my post but replying to them anyway.

Firstly, my example was explicitly related to the psychic warrior. Secondly, I specifically suggested adding telekenitic attacks to the psychic warrior. What I wrote and this idea you're railing against of "not having his assassin subclass features to draw his weapons and speak without his hands and mouth?" are literally incompatible.

As for your last line, nope. Plenty of rogue subclasses have no resource cost features ever, and yet have plenty of cool stuff. Fighters have short rest resources, no need to shy away from one or two more, but only if they add to the fun of the class without saddling it with baggage it doesn't need.


I also never said there should be no limited resources, simply that a psionic option absolutely could be built without them.

 

[Parmandur]

The thing that bugs me about dnd, and not just 5e, is the idea that cool stuff needs limited resource management. Throwing a rock or chair or whatever at someone isn't necessarily more powerful than a longbow, it doesn't need to cost more than shooting with a longbow.

Add telekinesis to the psychic warrior, and it's everything I could want from such a subclass. If it has to have a "weak" (ie you can make ranged weapon attacks with objects affected by your telekinesis as part of the attack action, and are proficient with them) version, and a resource limited more powerful version (x/short rest you can increase the size of object your can move with your mind), then that's fine, but I don't need it.

A telekinetic subclass doesn't have to have limited resources.

A decent ranged cantrip that does Force damage (Mage Rage Hand or something) would let the Psychic Knight run around with a Sword or Axe or what have you without being limited.

 

[Minigiant]

I get really tired of people not fully reading my post but replying to them anyway.

Firstly, my example was explicitly related to the psychic warrior. Secondly, I specifically suggested adding telekenitic attacks to the psychic warrior. What I wrote and this idea you're railing against of "not having his assassin subclass features to draw his weapons and speak without his hands and mouth?" are literally incompatible.

As for your last line, nope. Plenty of rogue subclasses have no resource cost features ever, and yet have plenty of cool stuff. Fighters have short rest resources, no need to shy away from one or two more, but only if they add to the fun of the class without saddling it with baggage it doesn't need.


I also never said there should be no limited resources, simply that a psionic option absolutely could be built without them.

I did read your post. That's why I added psychic warrior/knight stuff to the list of "Cool stuff".

My point is telekinesis is a 5th level transmutation spell. It will cost something to do.

The class features people who want psionics are requesting are mostly things that require resources. The Attack system, the Skill/Tool system, the Sneak Attack system, and the Cantrip system are "at will". But few of the requested psionics I see are "at will". It's just mage hand, a psychic or force attack cantrip, basic telepathy, throwing your weapon, or a few feet of speed.

Cool. What they other 3-4 class features? Fighter subclasses are 5 or more features. Rogue, Sorcerer, and Wizard are 4 or more features for their subclasses.

 

[SkidAce]

I’m all for complexity, and I also voted against it, for the same reason. Divine and arcane magic work the same, so should psionic magic.

I don't agree. Consider that many folks feel that psionics is different (for many already discussed reason). Making it work like magic ruins the core thing it stood for.

As a small example, in my campaign, psionics is actually a higher form of manipulating the cosmos. Beginners and mortals are limited in what they can produce from their inner will, but gods use it to be, well gods, and alter reality by force of will.

Or in a previous campaign, psionics was "real" as opposed to magic. It was "sciencey", it could be studied, understood, enhanced. Magic was weird and although it worked (sympathetic style magic) nobody could say why, even though they tried.

Etc etc.

 

[Undrave]

They put out an option in November, that apparently got better feedback. No reason to think we won't see something like that.

Having re-read that UA today... that's depressing. They're SO BORING. The Fighter one is... it's okay I guess, in a 'champion' kind of way. It's got that all-important 'Fighter = Dumb' flavor to it... but the Rogue is just... SO GENERIC! If you'd tell me the Soul Knife in November was a Fighter subclass I wouldn't have noticed a thing.

 

[Parmandur]

Having re-read that UA today... that's depressing. They're SO BORING. The Fighter one is... it's okay I guess, in a 'champion' kind of way. It's got that all-important 'Fighter = Dumb' flavor to it... but the Rogue is just... SO GENERIC! If you'd tell me the Soul Knife in November was a Fighter subclass I wouldn't have noticed a thing.

I gather it started life as a Monk before going Rogue.

They were fine options. If something like that ends up in a book, it would fill that early 80's Jedi niche.

 

[Undrave]

The thing that bugs me about dnd, and not just 5e, is the idea that cool stuff needs limited resource management. Throwing a rock or chair or whatever at someone isn't necessarily more powerful than a longbow, it doesn't need to cost more than shooting with a longbow.

Add telekinesis to the psychic warrior, and it's everything I could want from such a subclass. If it has to have a "weak" (ie you can make ranged weapon attacks with objects affected by your telekinesis as part of the attack action, and are proficient with them) version, and a resource limited more powerful version (x/short rest you can increase the size of object your can move with your mind), then that's fine, but I don't need it.

A telekinetic subclass doesn't have to have limited resources.

A Telekinetic Fighter sounds good... and you know what... Why should there only be ONE Psionic Fighter subclass anyway? Psionic is pretty wide, why not give the Fighter two? One would be the Telekinesis Adept, and the other could the Psi Knight who uses Psionic to enhance his body, or uses a variation on the Talent Die to represent wild unpredicable psychic power. There's conceptual room, you don't need to jam all the Psionic+Heavy Armor concepts into one subclass.

 

[SkidAce]

D&D players: "I hate 4e! All classes feel the same!"
Also D&D players: "Psionics must use mechanics already in the PHB."

Kind of frustrating, from my point of view, and makes it hard to justify continued support for official stuff in an environment like this. As collateral damage, this appears to spell doom for any chance of decent support for Dark Sun, or even Eberron campaigns that involve the Kalashtar or the Quori.

I really like the 5e engine. I own everything WotC released thus far. It appears that this support won't result in anything meatier than yet another not very innovative FR module, though. My hope keeps fading with every new statement from their team, and maybe it would be wiser to take my money somewhere else.

I like you, have most everything. LOVE the 5e engine, its the most elegant mix of old school and modern game design, with room for my home brew.

"Hope"? dont need it. If they stop producing stuff I like, I've got enough, not changing my world to a new game system again. I understand it easier to get/keep players with the current edition, so you would think I'd be concerned about being left behind. But no. I am very good at getting people to rp with any system*. So players will not be a problem.


* I just recently got a Champions/HERO game going, talk about complicated character building. Oh, and my RIFTS campaign...