D&D 5E People don't read the 5E DMG for a reason

[Micah Sweet]

Edition Wars can always be avoided.

Not if you present one edition's work as superior to the others.

 

[Cadence]

The first thing I do when I start a totally new campaign is create the world. Adventures comes after, and then encounters. The 5e DMG is the right order for me.

Is that the order you did it the first time you ever DMed at all?

 

[Micah Sweet]

As I tried to get at in the post that came in as you were typing yours, I'm not sure what the DMG is really for anymore. In 1e it had a lot of roles since many things were hidden from the players -- and so everyone had to read it. Does the way it is actually put together today make something that's worth calling a core book? Would putting in some monsters and removing some of the more in depth campaign building make an actual core book that was more useful to more people? Is there any reason besides tradition to have the core PHB, DMG, MM? Would a "Campaign Masters Guide" allow for a lot of new things?

Probably not, strictly speaking. I would buy the heck out of a Campaign Guide or Worldbuilder's Guide. But there will always be a DMG, because tradition.

 

[Aldarc]

The first thing I do when I start a totally new campaign is create the world. Adventures comes after, and then encounters. The 5e DMG is the right order for me.

Sure, but that does not necessarily reflect a good order or progression for learning the game. When I learn a new game as a GM, for example, I will need to know the basics for how to run the game rather than how to create the world.

Not if you present one edition's work as superior to the others.

Sorry, but saying that I think that the 4e DMG did a good job of laying out the contents of their DMG is not invitation for an edition war.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Is that the order you did it the first time you ever DMed at all?

My first DM experience used 1e, and I had been playing for a while by then, so yes.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Quite right. It's not literally as difficult as brain surgery, right? If you want to do something difficult, try landing a jet on an aircraft carrier! I'm with you, Paul.

And, as we've already established, it's not more difficult to do more work than less, since DMing isn't difficult. I think we can all agree that doing a "heck of a lot more work" is no more difficult than doing less work.

What fools we are to believe that a body of best practices could be built in support of a system designed by mere human beings. Let's not try to improve things. If the Albert Einsteins and Isaac Newtons of D&D failed to unravel this dilemma in 1984, then I fear the solution will lie forever beyond our reach.


I don't know how we shifted from taking about DMing advice to the rules of 4e, but you seem to want to make it unavoidable, Paul, so I won't stand in your way.

There is absolutely no consensus on what D&D's best practices actually are though, so I'm not sure how realistic that is.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sure, but that does not necessarily reflect a good order or progression for learning the game. When I learn a new game as a GM, for example, I will need to know the basics for how to run the game rather than how to create the world.


Sorry, but saying that I think that the 4e DMG did a good job of laying out the contents of their DMG is not invitation for an edition war.

So people who disagree with you should just keep their mouths shut? I loved the 1e DMG, for example, much more than 4e's. Should I just remain silent on that issue?

And my order was the best one for me. On the other hand, I played for a long time before I DM'd. I don't know what the best way to learn DMing cold would be, but I'd prefer a separate product for that task.

 

[Aldarc]

So people who disagree with you should just keep their mouths shut? I loved the 1e DMG, for example, much more than 4e's. Should I just remain silent on that issue?

No one is asking anyone to be silent. Agreeing or disagreeing does not require edition war. It would be a gross error to conflate the two.

Plenty of people on this forum have talked about the pros and cons of the 1e DMG or B/X, for example, without edition warring. Many have talked about the good qualities of the 2e DMG as well. It doesn't require edition warring.

 

[EpicureanDM]

Sorry, but saying that I think that the 4e DMG did a good job of laying out the contents of their DMG is not invitation for an edition war.

Agreed. You can discuss whether the 4e DMG did a good job of supporting 4e DMs - and whether that approach and presentation could be good for future editions - without commenting on the relative merits of 4e compared to other editions.

There is absolutely no consensus on what D&D's best practices actually are though, so I'm not sure how realistic that is.

This is an unrealistic, unfair standard for improvement.

 

[Clint_L]

I like that we are having this discussion early - I can only imagine that WotC is having them, as well. The PHB is the obvious first choice for updating because it's by far the most important book, but it is also the one they probably want to be most careful with, given that they are broadly happy with 5e's mechanics already. I wonder if they will be more open to a serious revamp of the DMG, given the widespread opinion that it is the least essential of the "Big Three." And if Multiverse is anything to go by, I don't see much change happening to an updated MM at all.

 

[Stormonu]

Looking back, I think I got the most use out of the way it was organized was the 2E DMG.

I do remember because of the way the 1E was put together I memorized page numbers and used a notebook to write down/combine the DMG & UA rules so I would both know them and have them in one place. I don’t ever want to repeat that experience.

The 5E current situation is, to me, in many ways close to the 1E, with several “important” sections scattered/refined in Xanathar’s.

 

[tetrasodium]

Sorry, but saying that I think that the 4e DMG did a good job of laying out the contents of their DMG is not invitation for an edition war.

On that note of neutrality I'll add that the 3.x DMG did a great job of pulling back the curtain into crunch & RAI in its

Spoiler: ["sidebars & behind the curtain sections"

THE PURPOSE OF SIDEBARS
You’ll see blocks of text that look like this one frequently throughout this book. The information in these sidebars is not part of the rules per se, but you’ll find them useful and interesting in their own right. Most sidebars in this book serve either to introduce rules variants or to give you a glimpse “behind the curtain” into how some aspect of the D&D game was created.

Variant: To give you an idea of some of the ways in which you can alter the D&D rules for your own campaign, some sidebars suggest variants that you can adopt or modify to suit your game.

The basic rules presented in this book—that is, everything not identified as a variant—apply to the baseline D&D campaign. If you are playing in an RPGA® Network event, that event uses the basic rules in this book. Establishing a standard set of rules makes a worldwide gaming network possible.

Behind the Curtain: Some sidebars provide a further explanation of why the rules are the way they are—a look “behind the curtain” into how the game’s designers make decisions about the rules. If you’re thesort of DM who likes to tinker with the rules of the D&D game, these sidebars offer some advice and inspiration as you customize the game for yourself and your players.

---

LIST OF SIDEBARS
Why a Revision?...................................................................................................4
The Purpose of Sidebars ....................................................................................4
Equipment for Running the Game..............................................................14
Behind the Curtain: Stacking Bonuses.......................................................21
Variant: Roll Initiative Each Round.............................................................22
Variant: Sapient Mounts..................................................................................23
Variant: Striking the Cover instead of a Missed Target..........................24
Variant: Automatic Hits and Misses ............................................................25
Variant: Defense Roll........................................................................................25
Behind the Curtain: Critical Hits.................................................................26
Variant: Clobbered ............................................................................................27
Variant: Massive Damage Based on Size.....................................................27
Variant: Weapon Equivalencies .....................................................................27
Variant: Instant Kill ..........................................................................................28
Variant: Softer Critical Hits............................................................................28
Variant: Critical Misses (Fumbles) ...............................................................28
Variant: Skills with Different Abilities........................................................33
Variant: Critical Success or Failure...............................................................34
Variant: Saves with Different Abilities........................................................35
Variant: Spell Roll..............................................................................................36
Variant: Power Components...........................................................................36
Variant: Summoning Individual Monsters................................................37
Variant: Free-Form Experience .....................................................................39
Variant: Faster or Slower Experience ..........................................................40
Behind the Curtain: Experience Points......................................................41
Behind the Curtain: When a PC Falls Behind..........................................42
One Hundred Adventure Ideas.....................................................................44
Adventure Writer’s Checklist ........................................................................46
Behind the Curtain: Treasure Values ...........................................................54
Behind the Curtain: Why Dungeons?.........................................................58
Walls, Doors, and Detect Spells.......................................................................60
Behind the Curtain: Traps...............................................................................67
Variant: What Disabling a Device Means...................................................70
Variant: Upkeep ...............................................................................................130
Behind the Curtain: How Real Is Your Fantasy? ...................................136
Variant: No Sidebars for Variant Rules .....................................................171
Behind the Curtain: Why Mess around with Character Classes?....175
Behind the Curtain: A Limit to Attacks and Saves ...............................207
Behind the Curtain: Building an Epic Progression ..............................210
Variant: New Magic Items............................................................................214
Behind the Curtain: Putting Cursed Items in Your Game .................274
Behind the Curtain: Magic Item Gold Piece Vaules ............................282
Behind the Curtain: Special Weapons Materials...................................283
Behind the Curtain: Body Slot Affinities.................................................288
Variant: Separate Ability Loss......................................................................290
Variant: Nonmagical Psionics......................................................................297
Variant: Less Lethal Falls...............................................................................303

 

[Paul Farquhar]

No one is asking anyone to be silent. Agreeing or disagreeing does not require edition war. It would be a gross error to conflate the two.

Plenty of people on this forum have talked about the pros and cons of the 1e DMG or B/X, for example, without edition warring. Many have talked about the good qualities of the 2e DMG as well. It doesn't require edition warring.

It does when someone says "this was good" when someone else's experience tells them "this was bad". Most people feel fairly neutral about 1e, 2e and B/X. You don't get a war when people don't know or don't care.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I don't know what the best way to learn DMing cold would be, but I'd prefer a separate product for that task.

Just getting on and doing it. It worked for me (I DMed 2nd time I played). No one told me it was supposed to be difficult.

 

[EpicureanDM]

It does when someone says "this was good" when someone else's experience tells them "this was bad". Most people feel fairly neutral about 1e, 2e and B/X. You don't get a war when people don't know or don't care.

As I said in reply to someone else, you can discuss whether the 4e DMG did a good job of supporting 4e DMs - and whether that approach and presentation could be good for future editions - without commenting on the relative merits of 4e compared to other editions. Just because you aren't personally equipped to have this conversation doesn't mean that others can't.

 

[delericho]

I think calling it a “core” book is a mistake. Core implies it is essential for running/playing the game, and the only book you need for 5E is the PHB.

This may be the fundamental problem with the DMG: back in 1st Edition that book contained a whole load of rules that were necessary for play. Since 2nd Edition the key rules have all been in the PHB, meaning that the DMG is needed only for the magic items and a handful of tables.

So maybe it's just a book that is struggling to justify its page count?

 

[EpicureanDM]

Just getting on and doing it. It worked for me (I DMed 2nd time I played). No one told me it was supposed to be difficult.

Walking uphill both ways in the snow to DM your games is truly inspiring.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

As I said in reply to someone else, you can discuss whether the 4e DMG did a good job of supporting 4e DMs - and whether that approach and presentation could be good for future editions

I did that. I got accused of edition waring because I dared to criticise the sacred 4e.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

This may be the fundamental problem with the DMG: back in 1st Edition that book contained a whole load of rules that were necessary for play. Since 2nd Edition the key rules have all been in the PHB, meaning that the DMG is needed only for the magic items and a handful of tables.

So maybe it's just a book that is struggling to justify its page count?

This is the question we should be discussing: why the heck do we need a DMG anyway?

I would say, we don't. It's not a good way to teach people to DM - free multimedia content would be the best way to do that; and rules would be more convenient if they where all collected together in a single well indexed book (like pretty much every other RPG).

 

[Umbran]

It does when someone says "this was good" when someone else's experience tells them "this was bad"

Mod Note:
No, being met with someone who had a different experience than you did doesn't require you get into edition war, to rhetorically beat that other person into submission, or otherwise badger or bully them into agreeing with you or backing down. That's a choice you get to make.

That's right - you get to choose how you behave, how you treat other people.

If (generic) you can't make a good choice, that's on you.