D&D 5E Player characters teaching (arcane) spells to each other

[KahlessNestor]

Would it still threaten the individual classes if you only Arcane users try to learn arcane spells and dividers only learn Devine spells?

I think it would, to am extent. Druids and rangers are considered divine casters, but their spell lists are completely different from a cleric.

I guess my biggest problem with it is that wizards are like Tony Stark. They're technicians of magic. He's strong because he built a suit. Others, like a sorcerer, are like mutants. Colossus is strong because he was born with that superhuman ability. He doesn't have to learn, so not sure how he could "teach".

The analogy isn't perfect, I kmow, but I think it's a start in understanding why I think it would be difficult.

 

[ScuroNotte]

This is honestly a pretty narrow set of circumstances if you take the Divine/Arcane/Primal divide into account. Also, it doesn't apply well to divine casters at all.

As per the PHB rules, a divine caster (AKA Cleric or Paladin) already "knows" every spell of a certain level. Therefore, a cleric cannot teach a cleric any new spells, they both have the same spells known. Teaching a Paladin a cleric only spell enters into the territory of simply expanding the paladin list, and also these spells are "inspired by the gods" so that whole thing is a little tricky.

Allowing Sorcerers or Warlocks to teach spells falls into the same fluff problem. Warlocks and Sorcerers get their spells, but they don't study and learn them. For a sorcerer it becomes teaching someone how to breathe, at a certain point you either can do it or not, you can't explain how to someone. Since Warlocks get their spells from other entities it depends a lot on their fluff, but if you go with them just suddenly "knowing" magic it could be something they can't teach.

So... bards and wizards are the big arcane question and Druids and Rangers. I think Druids work the same as clerics, so they wouldn't have any need to teach beyond the circle of the land extra spells... which you could conceivably share but that might upset the balance. Also, Bards using the power of song and word is very different from the wizards arcane formulas in my opinion, so I would not allow Bards and wizards to share.

I guess I was thinking along this route

Example:
Sorcerer knows Telekinesis. He tries to master the spell further through trial and error to create a "Hand or Wall of Force" (Bigby's Fist or Wall of Force). After several months of attempts, the DM has the character roll to see if it was a success or not.
It is still a Arcane spell and the Character has a spell that uses a "Force" component. Could he try?

 

[KahlessNestor]

I guess I was thinking along this route

Example:
Sorcerer knows Telekinesis. He tries to master the spell further through trial and error to create a "Hand or Wall of Force" (Bigby's Fist or Wall of Force). After several months of attempts, the DM has the character roll to see if it was a success or not.
It is still a Arcane spell and the Character has a spell that uses a "Force" component. Could he try?

I might allow them Wall of Force, but a spell with a "name" just screams "wizard only!" to me. Sorcerers are almost by definition, it seems to me, blunt hammers. They can do massive and barely controlled magic, like fireballs and telekinesis, but refined stuff should be relatively difficult.

 

[KahlessNestor]

Really speaking, wizards are the only class that will benefit from this in a mechanical sense as other classes either know a certain allotment of spells which doesn't change or may prepare any spells on their class list. For a wizard learning a spell from a different class, I would probably follow the method listed in the players handbook but increase the amount of time needed to learn the spell, rather than 2 hours per spell level I'd perhaps double it to 4 hours/spell level.

For every "spells known" class, learning a spell from another player could be an interesting justification for a spell change when they level up. This could also be good background for a player picking up the magic initiate feat. The clever rogue studies with the party wizard and manages to pick up a couple of cantrips and a spell, of the pious fighter is ordained into the faith and learns some minor clerical magics.

This all requires the spells to be available for your class, I don't think that the Opening Post was wanting a way for another class to learn a spell outside their list, some classes just aren't going to be able to grasp certain spells.

I would probably also require an arcana check every time he cast the spell, to make sure he "gets it right", at least for the first level he knows it. Probably also an extra Concentration (Arcana) check in addition to any Constitution concentration checks. If it's something that duplicates another spell list, like a cure spell, I might even nerf the spell, by like a die size, at least for a time.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I guess I was thinking along this route

Example:
Sorcerer knows Telekinesis. He tries to master the spell further through trial and error to create a "Hand or Wall of Force" (Bigby's Fist or Wall of Force). After several months of attempts, the DM has the character roll to see if it was a success or not.
It is still a Arcane spell and the Character has a spell that uses a "Force" component. Could he try?

I could potentially see working your way around to Bigby's hands, but not the Wall, it is simply too different an application of the forces.

You could homebrew and make learning new spells like that make sense, but to me to sorcerer is just not that sort of mage. He doesn't experiment, he doesn't try trial and error. He simply makes magic happen.

Mechanically, I don't think there is anything wrong with it, my fluff just doesn't mesh well with the idea.

 

[CapnZapp]

Not sure I see the controversy here.

The only PHB class that can teach and be learned spells is the Wizard (and its "disciples" the Arcane Trickster and Knight).

If there are two of those they can certainly share their spellbooks and learn from each other, no problems whatsoever.

But a Bard can't learn new spells from a book, or a teacher.

Bards (and all other non-Wizard classes, in fact) learn spells by "spontaneously" sprouting the ability when they level.

That tells me that a Wizard's spellbook is useless to a Bard - his spell repertoire can't be extended by access to spell libraries.

The opposite is also certainly true. The Wizard is supposed to WANT to adventure to reach evil casters' libraries and gain new spells from those. Just copying all the spells on the wizard list from his Bard, Warlock and Cleric buddies is a no-no (as far as the RAW is concerned).

The Wizard already has a "sprout your own spells" ability: two per level.

This limit is not to be trivially enlarged by sharing spells from adventuring buddies (that aren't Wizards themselves).

Two Wizards can certainly coordinate their automatic spells and then share their findings to gain four automatic spells per level instead of two.

PS. There's no such thing as an "arcane spell" in this edition.

A spell might be on the Wizard and Sorcerer list but not on the Cleric or Druid list, but there's no overarching dichtomy in 5E.

 

[steeldragons]

A spell might be on the Wizard and Sorcerer list but not on the Cleric or Druid list, but there's no overarching dichtomy in 5E.

Just a nitpick here, and not really here or there for the conversation,...

...But the fact that a spell might appear on a Wizard & Sorcerer but not the Cleric & Druid lists is, kind of by definition, an "overarchy dichotomy in 5e."

It is unspoken. It's not called out explicitly. The terms "Arcane" or Divine" are not applied to the class' spellcasting, per se...unless/until you want to take into account things like "Divine Sense," "Divine Domains," "Channel Divinity," "Arcane Recovery," "Arcane Tradition," "Arcane [vs. Druidic] Spellcasting Focus," "Mystic Arcanum," [I'd even include "Eldritch Invocations" and a note/case could be made of this being a separation/branch/offshoot or subset of/from "Arcane" magic] etc...

So, I would say (and imho), the "overarching dichotomy" is alive and well.

 

[CapnZapp]

Let's just state as fact that the 3e-era division of spells into either arcane or divine (or psionic) is not present in 5th edition.

A spell is simply part of one or more lists. Nothing more, nothing less. There is nothing left of the previous idea that a spell or scroll would be "arcane" or "divine" for instance.

A spell either is on your class' list or it is not. There is no overarching classificiation beyond a spell "on the wizard list", or "on the druid list".

Thus the previous-edition terminology is irrelevant at best and misleading at worst.

There simply does not exist anything similar to the notion "this is a divine spell, and my class is a divine caster, so I enjoy certain advantages in relation to this spell regardless of whether it is on my class' spell list or not".

I suggest we stop talking about arcane and divine in regards to spells and associated items such as scrolls.

Labeling a class as a "divine practicioner" or "master of the arcane arts" is something else. In fact, in 5e it's pure window-dressing.

 

[HawaiiSteveO]

CapnZapp, really like your answer / thoughts!

There is no spoon . . .

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

There simply does not exist anything similar to the notion "this is a divine spell, and my class is a divine caster, so I enjoy certain advantages in relation to this spell regardless of whether it is on my class' spell list or not".

I suggest we stop talking about arcane and divine in regards to spells and associated items such as scrolls.

Agreed. For the purposes if this discussion, we need to differentiate between innate casting, prepared casting and studied casting. Those are my terms, anyway, I don't think there's an official term.

Innate casting: You have a small list of known spells and you can cast any of them at any time. You can add and remove spells from this list only at levelup. Classes: Bard, Eldritch Knight, Ranger, Arcane Rogue, Sorcerer.

Prepared casting: You automatically know a large list of spells and prepare a small number each day that you can cast. Cleric, Druid, Paladin.

Studied casting: You know a large list of spells, stored in a spell book. You can add to this list at any time. You prepare a small number each day that you can cast. Classes: Wizard.

Warlocks are in a completely differrent category, because they are not spellcasters.