D&D 5E playtest 18th level PC vs town...lFqW reborn... or not

[Hussar]

Gm4PG, I wasn't questioning your example, just asking. I don't have the phb so I was going by the stock Basic fighter. I think the healing after half hp would make a very big difference.

Not poking holes at all. Just thinking how my own fighter would stack up.

I just happen to be playing a high AC tank style fighter, so it would be plate and shield, probably both plus one if I hadn't druthers.

 

[ccooke]

I think nitpicking this sort of test after the fact doesn't prove anything. Sure, with hindsight, things could always be different. But characters are not universally built from perfect optimisation guides (and even where those guides exist, there are multiple opinions on what constitutes 'perfect optimisation').

The characters in the test looked like decent, believable characters that could be generated by real players in a game. It doesn't matter if some people here would do things differently.

The players made an honest attempt to survive. That there was a TPK is a datapoint that indicates a high level party can be threatened by a lot of low-level creatures. It does not mean that a level 18 party will always die if a village attacks. What it does do is imply that in an average game, an entire village suddenly attacking can be a threat to high level characters. Which was exactly the question the thread was trying to answer.

Basically? Thanks for doing this, [MENTION=67338]GMforPowergamers[/MENTION].

As to the LFQW problem, is this a problem that particularly suits a wizard? It would be interesting to take the same characters and see what effect they have against a more normal encounter of their level. I might try that next week, actually, if I can get the players

 

[Blackwarder]

Firstly, thank you GM4PG, that been very entertaining.

I don't think that this example illustrate a problem with Linear Fighters Quadratic Wizards, at least not in the way it was in older editions, quite frankly this kind of encounters are where this particular build should shine, and I think that taking the entire adventure as a whole, with the fact that the PCs weren't prepeard for this kind of thing, Especialy the wizard who didn't knew what to expect, it was a perfect example of what could happen to a high level party.

One of the things I love about 5e is the fact that low level creatures are still a threat for higher level characters, makes the world "bigger" the characters are powerful but not enough to outright conquer the world.

Warder

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The players made an honest attempt to survive. That there was a TPK is a datapoint that indicates a high level party can be threatened by a lot of low-level creatures. It does not mean that a level 18 party will always die if a village attacks. What it does do is imply that in an average game, an entire village suddenly attacking can be a threat to high level characters. Which was exactly the question the thread was trying to answer.

Basically? Thanks for doing this, [MENTION=67338]GMforPowergamers[/MENTION].

thanks, and for the record something that got lost in all of this was very bad luck at the end, the fighter had luck (so 3 rerolls) and used his last one to reroll a 1 on an attack, and rerolled it as a 1, and the final encounter (after down to only 2 PCs) I got 2 crits in the first round... those 3d20 rolls alone where a big issue.

As to the LFQW problem, is this a problem that particularly suits a wizard? It would be interesting to take the same characters and see what effect they have against a more normal encounter of their level. I might try that next week, actually, if I can get the players

oh I do think mass combat does go to the wizard. My problem is far from the problem I had with 3e casters, but this test did not do anything to qwell my growing fear of inbalance.

Firstly, thank you GM4PG, that been very entertaining.

thanks... it was kind of fun to run, especially since 2 of the three players where ones I don't get to run often.

the big surprise was the bard's identify

I don't think that this example illustrate a problem with Linear Fighters Quadratic Wizards, at least not in the way it was in older editions, quite frankly this kind of encounters are where this particular build should shine, and I think that taking the entire adventure as a whole, with the fact that the PCs weren't prepeard for this kind of thing, Especialy the wizard who didn't knew what to expect, it was a perfect example of what could happen to a high level party.

yea, that was an important part of the test... and in general the math held up. CR2's and 3's in large numbers where a threat, and giving a simple +1 long sword, or +2 defender made them seem pretty much a huge threat. my only problem was I used the basic build for wizard and it still didn't seem very basic...

One of the things I love about 5e is the fact that low level creatures are still a threat for higher level characters, makes the world "bigger" the characters are powerful but not enough to outright conquer the world.

I imagine that the thing they promised (can run orcs level 1-20) may not be 100% but is very close.

 

[ccooke]

thanks, and for the record something that got lost in all of this was very bad luck at the end, the fighter had luck (so 3 rerolls) and used his last one to reroll a 1 on an attack, and rerolled it as a 1, and the final encounter (after down to only 2 PCs) I got 2 crits in the first round... those 3d20 rolls alone where a big issue.


oh I do think mass combat does go to the wizard. My problem is far from the problem I had with 3e casters, but this test did not do anything to qwell my growing fear of inbalance.

Hmm. Have you got hold of the DMG yet? The options in there on pages 271-273 look to very much favour martial prowess - marking things, cleaving through creatures, massive damage rolls when a creature takes half its hp in damage.

 

[Doom_Paperclip]

I'm going to second the opinion of many other posters here and thank GMforPowergamers for taking the time and effort to organize and run this interesting experiment. That said, my take on the results is slightly different from most of the opinions here. The way I see it, this TPK proves that, as in every edition of D&D to date, how prepared you are can make a key difference between an easy encounter and an impossible one.

Take the Wizard, for instance. A lot of people have pointed out that the Wizard's spell selection was less than optimal. While I agree that, in principle, spells you absolutely must have shouldn't exist, it cannot be denied that, for instance, giving the Wizard Shapechange could have made an enormous difference. My reasoning for this claim is that, assuming the Wizard had seen one during his lifetime, not a huge stretch since he managed to reach level 18, he could have used it to turn into a Couatl. This would be incredibly useful in your scenario for the following reasons:

1) Couatl's are immune to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage from nonmagical weapons. Those 300+ commoners in the town? They would have been completely useless.

2) Couatl's have a fly speed of 90ft. All the magic weapons you gave the townsfolk were melee weapons. Flying allows you to stay out of reach of them.

These two factors combined would have made the Shapeshifting Wizard essentially invulnerable in this scenario. The Shapechange spell lets you cast spells in your changed form. The Wizard could have stayed 100 or so ft in the air, casting Magic Missiles into the village below with impunity. The only threat would have come from the Assassin's crossbow, which can deal Poison damage, but even then, a Couatl has a base AC of 19, which can be boosted by Shield to 24, and if the Wizard flew constantly outside of the short range of the crossbow, the attack roll would have to be made with disadvantage (or normally, with surprise) and the Assassin would probably only have one chance to break the Wizard's concentration before being neutralized by a spell like Disintegrate. Given that Shapechange can last up to an hour, 600 rounds in other words, the Wizard really could have, with a more than reasonable chance of success, soloed the whole scenario with the help of that spell.

Then again, the tactics above were an ideal solution I came up with knowing the ins and outs of the entire scenario. There's no guarantee that given Shapechange, the Wizard's player would have reached the same conclusion. Still, even if he used it to turn into an Adult Red Dragon or something similarly deadly and, more to the point, with the ability to fly and with high AC, it would have, at the very least, been more useful than Time Stop.

As for the lFqW argument, my experience with 5th Edition D&D so far is that when it comes to comparing classes with each other, the grass is always greener on the other side. Sure, a Fighter's player might envy a Wizard's immense variety of flexible options, but at the same time the Wizard's player might envy the Fighter's ability to deal more single target damage at will than the Wizard can by expending spell slots short of Meteor Swarm, as well as the fact that the Fighter doesn't have to worry about Magic Resistance or Legendary Resistance.

 

[ccooke]

It's simply not possible to be prepared all the time, and I think my job when I DM is to provide variety and challenge - I make sure that it's possible for the party to be prepared most of the time, but every now and then I will throw them something unexpected.

And at the point where you're working out the backstory of a character as to whether they've happened to see a Coatl so you can use it for a particular situation, I think that might be applying hindsight too much to this one

 

[Stalker0]

The players made an honest attempt to survive. That there was a TPK is a datapoint that indicates a high level party can be threatened by a lot of low-level creatures. It does not mean that a level 18 party will always die if a village attacks. What it does do is imply that in an average game, an entire village suddenly attacking can be a threat to high level characters. Which was exactly the question the thread was trying to answer.

I agree, the example definitely showed that a high level 5e party does not simply trounce a lot of low level creatures innately.

That said, as others have noted, there are some choice spells that would have made this particular encounter a complete cakewalk. I've noticed in my perusing that those effects come into play around 7th level and above spells. And of course, 9th level spells remain in their own special class.

 

[Doom_Paperclip]

It's simply not possible to be prepared all the time, and I think my job when I DM is to provide variety and challenge - I make sure that it's possible for the party to be prepared most of the time, but every now and then I will throw them something unexpected.

Which I guess is why travathian wondered why the Wizard wasn't packing Teleport. Again, I agree with the sentiment that "must haves" shouldn't exist, but means of bailing out quickly in case things go south are always useful. There are times when you simply cannot afford to retreat, regroup and rethink your approach, like when you only have a few hours to stop an evil ritual from taking place, but otherwise it's nice to have that option. I believe that always having an escape route is also a facet of being prepared. As the saying goes, expect the unexpected.

And at the point where you're working out the backstory of a character as to whether they've happened to see a Coatl so you can use it for a particular situation, I think that might be applying hindsight too much to this one

If a feathered serpent doesn't do it for you, an Androsphinx would work too. It can also fly and has nonmagical immunity. Otherwise any Lycanthrope or a Rakshasa would work too on the nonmagical immunity front, although they cannot fly, which would make things riskier for the Wizard.

If you don't mind that the target cannot use their class features, True Polymorph to turn one of the other party members into one of the above beings or a Demilich or any Golem would also work. Provided you could figure out how to keep the Wizard safe so that his concentration doesn't get disrupted, it could work even better than the Shapechange approach. I just figure that the chances an 18th level character had met at least one of those monsters during his lifetime were better than even. Of course, everything is ultimately up to the DM.

I agree, the example definitely showed that a high level 5e party does not simply trounce a lot of low level creatures innately.

I dare say that no party trounces any encounter close to their XP threshold innately.