D&D (2024) Playtest 6 Survey is Open

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I think, the monk could need one or two more attribute increase(s) . That would help a lot to give them more flexibility.
Then add feats that are worth taking. Better than overpower the baseline.
Show me how what's been proposed is an overpowered baseline. Just crunch some basic numbers. You've said that repeatedly, I think it's not the case, but you show me why I am wrong.

All I've said is the Martial Arts Die should apply to the weapons they can use as well as unarmed strike, like it did in the 2014 PHB where I saw not one single person claim that was overpowered. But you think that's overpowered (it's literally just one more point of damage, and only at high levels). So OK, tell me why you think that extra point of damage at high levels is so overpowering in your opinion.

The only other thing I think I've said, or maybe I didn't even mention it, is they should get access to weapons across the Weapon Mastery spectrum. Right now they don't have access to a weapon that does the Graze or Topple mastery for instance, and they're the only martial class that doesn't have access to the full array of weapons with Mastery types, and I think they should. Either add those properties to some simple weapons, or give them access to a weapon that has those properties (like a trident for Topple).
 
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Show me how what's been proposed is an overpowered baseline. Just crunch some basic numbers. You've said that repeatedly, I think it's not the case, but you show me why I am wrong.

All I've said is the Martial Arts Die should apply to the weapons they can use as well as unarmed strike, like it did in the 2014 PHB where I saw not one single person claim that was overpowered. But you think that's overpowered (it's literally just one more point of damage, and only at high levels). So OK, tell me why you think that extra point of damage at high levels is so overpowering in your opinion.

Please show me, where I say that this is overpowered. I remember to say the opposite.

It all started when I said, that treantmonk in his chart compared the base monk class with berserker babrbarian and devotion paladin.

And that people always take feats into account when comparing monk vs others and say that there are no good feats for the monk so the monk should get buffed. I say: buff feats, not only the monk if feats are one of the the problems.
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
I was thinking about this in another thread, but it probably belongs here:

I think that there are two fundamental problems with WotC's Playtest-Survey-Print process.

1) Their survey methodology doesn't seem to do much toward letting them know WHAT the audience likes or doesn't like about a game element, or WHY they vote the way they do (beyond type-in explanations, which only the hardest of hardcore playtesters will do, and then WotC has to rely on understanding what they've written). I'm pretty sure that the questions CAN and SHOULD be asked in a different way.

2) There's always a revisionist pass between the last time we are surveyed and the print version. Now, I don't know about you, but the D&D NEXT playtest (and some of the following UAs) showed me that I can easily like the print version LESS than the playtest version, even when I really liked the playtest version. My point here is this: How do they know that their print version would score 70%? They don't, until they do a survey on the book much later down the road, and they've OFTEN found that some things score low. (The PHB Ranger, for example).

I think that fixing my first point would go a lot way toward fixing my second point.
 

Ashrym

Legend
Until very recently every game I've ran was a no feats game (not because I banned them, players just didn't want them). I'd roughly guess that background feats wasn't really a thing until, what, Tasha’s. It's probably safe to say the majority of games do include feats but I wouldn't say every table uses them. That will change due to feats being baked into the revision.

Groups don’t need to use the ‘24 Species. They can combine the ‘14 Races with the’24 Classes. Or so I keep hearing…

I'm expecting 2024 will be the standard and 2014 will be the exception.
 


Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Please show me, where I say that this is overpowered. I remember to say the opposite.

"Better than overpower the baseline." That's the post I responded to.
It all started when I said, that treantmonk in his chart compared the base monk class with berserker babrbarian and devotion paladin.

And that people always take feats into account when comparing monk vs others and say that there are no good feats for the monk so the monk should get buffed. I say: buff feats, not only the monk if feats are one of the the problems.
I know and I've responded to all of that already, right? Because it's not just feats, we listed the other elements, explained how when the list is that long fixing everything else rather than the base monk makes more sense, asking why adding back weapons to their feature like it was in 2014 is an issue for you, and that led to this post of yours without answering that.

Why do you have an issue with adding back weapons to their Martial Arts Die, which is something the 2014 monk had? You claim you never called that version of the monk overpower so OK, why do you object to it in 2024 and call that an act of "overpower[ing] the baseline?"
 

Clint_L

Hero
The baseline monk is underpowered. Period. I'm not going to argue about it with someone who ignores the evidence that they are shown and can't produce one piece of evidence to the contrary, as if math doesn't matter in a game that is to a large extent made out of math (certainly combat is). It's stupid wasting time arguing with one person who won't accept what has been shown with the numbers and has been the consensus of the player base for nine years now: monk needs improvement. Discussing feats as if they are the main issue is ridiculous; monks losing access to martial feats is just adding insult to injury, but the injury is much more substantial.

 

Why do you have an issue with adding back weapons to their Martial Arts Die, which is something the 2014 monk had?
I never said that. I have no issue with that and even said that it needs buff given the current state.

You claim you never called that version of the monk overpower so OK, why do you object to it in 2024 and call that an act of "overpower[ing] the baseline?"

I said, that people compare the monk wittout feats and subclasses with other classes with feats and subclasses. (See treant monk graphic).
I also said that using only damage as the metric is flawed.

So I said, if you buff the monk base class damage output to the output of other classes woth everything added, then you have a problem.

So why do you insist I said I don't want to buff the monk? Search for my post and read them to the end, and you see that I also want buffs. In several places.

Edit: just for reference. This is what Chaosmancer said:
If we don't have better feats, then monks need to be buffed slightly more for parity.
And this is what I strongly object to. You should not buff the baseline slightly more to make up for the lack of support in an officially optional rule.
 
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The baseline monk is underpowered.
So. Since you seem to adress me. I say you need to buff the baseline as well as other parts as well and not overtune it.

It is ridiculous that some people can't differentiate between not wanting a buff and wanting buffs in different places...

For your reference:
this is what I object to:
If we don't have better feats, then monks need to be buffed slightly more for parity.
Which is what I object to.

Put buffs in the right place.

If the monk was designed by people who think that way, we will have 10 years of "OMG the monk is so overtuned" threads.
 

piece of evidence to the contrary, as if math doesn't matter in a game that is to a large extent made out of math (certainly combat is).
What is funny. I don't have to find evidence for a position I don't have.

I have produced evidence for people using wrong comparisons: screenshot from the treant monk video where he clearly compares apples with oranges. Which you chose to ignore.
 
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